00:00:04.970 --> 00:00:09.425
(MUSIC PLAYING)

00:00:26.780 --> 00:00:30.310
- I don't know if I could
forgive somebody the way

00:00:30.310 --> 00:00:32.028
he's been able to forgive me.

00:00:39.660 --> 00:00:41.450
- I knew the only way
I was going to get

00:00:41.450 --> 00:00:42.620
past it was to forgive him.

00:00:45.380 --> 00:00:48.260
And that is a huge undertaking.

00:01:02.428 --> 00:01:06.892
(MUSIC PLAYING)

00:01:17.310 --> 00:01:22.402
- This is the old neighborhood
where I grew up --

00:01:23.760 --> 00:01:27.240
East San Gabriel Valley, suburbs
of Los Angeles, California.

00:01:31.460 --> 00:01:34.920
And of course, in the
late '60s and early 1970s,

00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:37.440
this was, you know,
"Wonderland", I guess.

00:01:40.220 --> 00:01:41.970
There was always
something going on.

00:01:41.970 --> 00:01:44.555
There was always kids coming
over to someone's house,

00:01:44.555 --> 00:01:45.430
you know, sleepovers.

00:01:50.030 --> 00:01:54.706
A very Anglo community,
not that much diversity.

00:02:05.007 --> 00:02:06.465
- I grew up in
northern California,

00:02:06.465 --> 00:02:10.614
a very small town just
outside of San Francisco.

00:02:14.700 --> 00:02:17.120
It was a very strict household
in the sense of religion.

00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:19.880
We'd this on Fridays, this on
Saturdays, this on Sundays.

00:02:19.880 --> 00:02:21.505
We went to church every
day, because of course we

00:02:21.505 --> 00:02:22.504
went to Catholic school.

00:02:23.004 --> 00:02:28.932
- I had always
felt like I was...

00:02:28.932 --> 00:02:30.140
I don't know, on the outside.

00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:36.275
I didn't really fit in.

00:02:36.275 --> 00:02:38.650
- I wouldn't say I hated girls,
but I had absolutely zero

00:02:38.650 --> 00:02:39.450
interest in them.

00:02:42.090 --> 00:02:43.600
The bullying, it didn't...

00:02:43.600 --> 00:02:47.710
you know, I couldn't tell if
it was because they really

00:02:47.710 --> 00:02:49.820
knew what my sexuality
was, or if it

00:02:49.820 --> 00:02:53.100
was I was the tiniest kid in the
class and the easiest target.

00:02:53.100 --> 00:02:56.270
- Regarding racial
issues, I wouldn't

00:02:56.270 --> 00:02:58.890
say that it was a
blatant sort of thing.

00:02:58.890 --> 00:03:00.270
It was very subtle.

00:03:00.270 --> 00:03:03.610
What I can tell you is that
once my brother was shot

00:03:03.610 --> 00:03:08.980
by an African American,
my perception was

00:03:08.980 --> 00:03:13.520
if a person is black, they
are willing to attack me.

00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:15.540
And so there was that fear.

00:03:17.970 --> 00:03:19.770
- My mother asked
a question, "Why

00:03:19.770 --> 00:03:23.080
do you think that out of
all the kids in the class,

00:03:23.080 --> 00:03:24.550
why are they picking on you?"

00:03:24.550 --> 00:03:26.550
I said, well, it's obvious
they're picking on me

00:03:26.550 --> 00:03:27.216
because I'm gay.

00:03:28.330 --> 00:03:33.250
And she's like, "No child of
mine will live in this house

00:03:33.250 --> 00:03:36.460
if they choose to live in sin."

00:03:36.460 --> 00:03:40.950
And then she physically
drags me across the floor

00:03:40.950 --> 00:03:42.560
and throws me out.

00:03:51.344 --> 00:03:52.320
(CROWD CHEERING)

00:03:52.320 --> 00:03:54.780
(AGGRESSIVE GUITAR
MUSIC PLAYING)

00:03:54.780 --> 00:03:59.020
- My very first
hardcore punk rock show.

00:04:03.150 --> 00:04:04.490
There's something in the air.

00:04:07.840 --> 00:04:08.645
There was anger.

00:04:11.360 --> 00:04:12.360
There was fear.

00:04:14.460 --> 00:04:21.879
And for me, the violence
made me feel big.

00:04:21.879 --> 00:04:23.420
It's the only way
I could explain it.

00:04:23.420 --> 00:04:26.820
Made me feel elated.

00:04:26.820 --> 00:04:28.600
It was like a drug for me.

00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:32.440
The adrenalin rush that's
involved is like a drug.

00:04:34.688 --> 00:04:36.110
(SIREN WAILING)

00:04:36.110 --> 00:04:38.820
- I was picked up one night
for being out after curfew

00:04:38.820 --> 00:04:40.170
in San Francisco.

00:04:40.170 --> 00:04:43.020
After weeks of jumping
in and out of cars

00:04:43.020 --> 00:04:46.200
and being repeatedly
victimized, as a 13-year-old I

00:04:46.200 --> 00:04:47.730
just wanted to go home.

00:04:47.730 --> 00:04:52.030
My mom no longer wants
anything to do with me.

00:04:52.030 --> 00:04:55.400
And she said, "Fuck
you, you little faggot."

00:04:55.400 --> 00:04:57.490
And she took her hand
and smacked me so

00:04:57.490 --> 00:04:59.900
hard I went across the floor.

00:04:59.900 --> 00:05:06.196
And that's when I knew that
it was completely done.

00:05:06.196 --> 00:05:10.498
(MUSIC PLAYING)

00:05:10.498 --> 00:05:15.630
- The people that I
gravitated towards

00:05:15.630 --> 00:05:17.639
were called "Nazi punks."

00:05:17.639 --> 00:05:19.680
Tuesday nights, we're
going to go to the Starwood

00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:21.638
and we're going to get
in a fight with whoever.

00:05:21.638 --> 00:05:24.640
And then the next day, we're
supposed to go to school.

00:05:24.640 --> 00:05:29.330
When we were on the rampage,
you stood a very good chance

00:05:29.330 --> 00:05:30.250
of getting hurt.

00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:34.830
- I remember arriving in
Los Angeles, in Hollywood.

00:05:34.830 --> 00:05:36.340
I was just like, oh, my God.

00:05:36.340 --> 00:05:37.570
This is going to be great.

00:05:37.570 --> 00:05:40.570
But unfortunately,
the daily routines

00:05:40.570 --> 00:05:42.510
became the same as they
were in San Francisco.

00:05:42.510 --> 00:05:44.260
Hustling and selling
my body was no longer

00:05:44.260 --> 00:05:46.785
this terrible,
awful victimization.

00:05:46.785 --> 00:05:48.850
It was a means to an end.

00:05:48.850 --> 00:05:51.950
But I always had this little,
like, "I'm going to make it.

00:05:51.950 --> 00:05:53.920
Because I'm still going
to prove her wrong."

00:05:53.920 --> 00:05:58.267
(MUSIC PLAYING)

00:06:06.010 --> 00:06:10.040
- That evening was more
violent than usual.

00:06:12.320 --> 00:06:14.840
- At first glance, we saw
the mohawks and we thought,

00:06:14.840 --> 00:06:15.870
well, whatever.

00:06:15.870 --> 00:06:18.200
It's just punk rockers.

00:06:18.200 --> 00:06:21.060
- We had gotten out
of the club earlier.

00:06:21.060 --> 00:06:24.080
And we stopped two
or three times,

00:06:24.080 --> 00:06:28.500
simply to get out of the
car and beat somebody up.

00:06:28.500 --> 00:06:31.845
So we're at a heightened
level of aggression.

00:06:36.680 --> 00:06:41.330
We were across the
street from Oki Dogs.

00:06:41.330 --> 00:06:44.144
- This hamburger
stand was the Oki Dog.

00:06:44.144 --> 00:06:46.060
Across the street,
directly across the street,

00:06:46.060 --> 00:06:47.390
is where I heard them yell.

00:06:47.390 --> 00:06:49.930
- "Look, there they are again!

00:06:49.930 --> 00:06:50.590
The faggots!

00:06:50.590 --> 00:06:52.245
Let's go kill the faggots!"

00:06:52.245 --> 00:06:54.495
- As they were chasing me,
I was trying to make it out

00:06:54.495 --> 00:06:55.680
as quickly as I could.

00:06:55.680 --> 00:06:57.929
I was unaware that there
were several coming

00:06:57.929 --> 00:06:58.970
from the other direction.

00:07:01.890 --> 00:07:04.590
And as I get to the end of
the alley and I can see them

00:07:04.590 --> 00:07:06.830
coming, I just...

00:07:06.830 --> 00:07:07.330
I froze.

00:07:07.330 --> 00:07:08.080
I literally froze.

00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:13.470
- I turned, and I
saw that the rest

00:07:13.470 --> 00:07:16.242
of the people that I was
with were kicking somebody

00:07:16.242 --> 00:07:16.825
on the ground.

00:07:18.740 --> 00:07:21.450
- They started beating
me, punching me first then

00:07:21.450 --> 00:07:23.680
kicking me as hard as
they could in order

00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:24.890
to get me down to the ground.

00:07:27.186 --> 00:07:28.560
- I saw that he
was still moving,

00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:30.550
and I said something
to the effect of,

00:07:30.550 --> 00:07:32.540
"What's wrong with you guys?

00:07:32.540 --> 00:07:34.295
Don't you know how
to put a boot in?"

00:07:36.400 --> 00:07:38.585
- I remember looking
into that face.

00:07:38.585 --> 00:07:42.120
I remember looking at that
mohawk and those eyes.

00:07:42.120 --> 00:07:44.280
- I kicked him in the forehead.

00:07:44.280 --> 00:07:45.905
And (SNAPS FINGERS) he was out.

00:07:50.460 --> 00:07:52.480
- In those last
moments of looking up,

00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:55.840
and watching these 14 guys with
razor blades glued to the front

00:07:55.840 --> 00:07:58.340
of their boots
high-fiving each other,

00:07:58.340 --> 00:08:00.570
and they were
congratulating each other.

00:08:00.570 --> 00:08:03.790
They believed, with everything
that was within them,

00:08:03.790 --> 00:08:06.680
that they had accomplished
the goal of killing

00:08:06.680 --> 00:08:09.940
that kid in the alley who
had never spoken to them,

00:08:09.940 --> 00:08:11.570
had never said anything to them.

00:08:14.700 --> 00:08:17.950
The words and what I saw
were far more painful

00:08:17.950 --> 00:08:20.530
throughout my life than
the boots and the blades.

00:08:21.940 --> 00:08:26.580
- And we turned up the
music, and we drove back

00:08:26.580 --> 00:08:27.390
to the suburbs.

00:08:27.390 --> 00:08:29.940
I will tell you, it
was a long drive.

00:08:29.940 --> 00:08:33.250
It seemed like a very long
drive, and I think all of us

00:08:33.250 --> 00:08:39.006
were sort of internalizing and
processing what had happened.

00:08:39.006 --> 00:08:40.630
I went through most
of my life thinking

00:08:40.630 --> 00:08:43.289
that I had killed this person,
or at least not knowing.

00:09:10.690 --> 00:09:14.540
Every facet of my
life had something

00:09:14.540 --> 00:09:17.905
to do with the White
Power movement.

00:09:20.630 --> 00:09:23.650
If you want to call it an
epiphany, or the enlightenment,

00:09:23.650 --> 00:09:28.800
or the time when I realized
just how much damage I could be

00:09:28.800 --> 00:09:29.610
doing...

00:09:29.610 --> 00:09:32.750
We were in the grocery store,
and he said, "Look, Daddy,

00:09:32.750 --> 00:09:35.950
there's a big black..." and
he blurted out the N-word.

00:09:35.950 --> 00:09:39.370
And for me, I started to
feel that it wasn't making

00:09:39.370 --> 00:09:41.180
me feel good inside anymore.

00:09:41.180 --> 00:09:43.330
It didn't make me feel
like I was in charge

00:09:43.330 --> 00:09:46.220
or that I had control, or
power, or anything like that.

00:09:46.220 --> 00:09:48.400
And I was shamed.

00:09:48.400 --> 00:09:50.300
The violence and being
a part of that stuff

00:09:50.300 --> 00:09:53.590
was not working anymore,
just like a drug.

00:09:53.590 --> 00:09:56.490
When does the alcohol stop
making you feel better?

00:09:56.490 --> 00:10:00.077
When does the heroin stop
making you feel good?

00:10:00.077 --> 00:10:02.410
You know, there does become
a time when it doesn't work.

00:10:07.910 --> 00:10:13.130
- In 1998, Matthew Shepard is
beaten, dies seven days later.

00:10:13.130 --> 00:10:18.080
At first, I didn't know why I
felt so connected to his story.

00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:20.380
And when he died and I sat
there to think about it,

00:10:20.380 --> 00:10:25.360
I realized why -- is
that I lived that night.

00:10:25.360 --> 00:10:26.650
This kid didn't.

00:10:26.650 --> 00:10:29.080
And his voice was
silenced forever.

00:10:35.380 --> 00:10:37.230
Guys, I want to welcome
you to the museum.

00:10:37.230 --> 00:10:39.320
I'm gonna help you guys
go through security

00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:41.996
and get you started
with your tour guide.

00:10:41.996 --> 00:10:43.370
I'm one of the
managers, Matthew,

00:10:43.370 --> 00:10:44.320
but I am not your tour guide.

00:10:44.320 --> 00:10:46.502
Your tour guide is going
to meet you in a moment.

00:10:46.502 --> 00:10:48.210
Ellen, your group will
come to the front,

00:10:48.210 --> 00:10:50.001
and we're going to go
straight up the ramp.

00:10:54.970 --> 00:10:58.110
One of the things that
I think is most powerful

00:10:58.110 --> 00:11:00.700
that the museum has is the
power of personal testimony.

00:11:00.700 --> 00:11:02.420
People who have lived
through something

00:11:02.420 --> 00:11:05.340
or been a part of something are
able to share that experience

00:11:05.340 --> 00:11:07.700
firsthand, which
adds to the exhibits.

00:11:10.322 --> 00:11:12.030
...we'll just join
them wherever you are?

00:11:12.030 --> 00:11:13.680
Got it.

00:11:13.680 --> 00:11:18.110
When I became manager for the
museum, one of the speakers

00:11:18.110 --> 00:11:19.890
was Tim Zaal.

00:11:19.890 --> 00:11:21.630
And I remember
looking at the sheets

00:11:21.630 --> 00:11:23.890
before I had even
seen a picture of him,

00:11:23.890 --> 00:11:26.260
and it said, "Former
white supremacist."

00:11:26.260 --> 00:11:28.030
And I thought, well,
that's interesting.

00:11:28.030 --> 00:11:31.580
- And there was a
specific school group

00:11:31.580 --> 00:11:34.400
that Matthew wanted
some advice on.

00:11:35.540 --> 00:11:37.540
- We're talking
about the school.

00:11:37.540 --> 00:11:41.260
We're talking about the
kids for about five minutes.

00:11:41.260 --> 00:11:44.440
- Matthew asked me,
"Oh, so how did you

00:11:44.440 --> 00:11:47.970
get out of the movement?"
and stuff like that.

00:11:47.970 --> 00:11:50.850
And "Where did you grow up?"
came into the conversation,

00:11:50.850 --> 00:11:53.770
and we started to talk
about our backgrounds.

00:11:53.770 --> 00:11:56.800
- I was a street kid.

00:11:56.800 --> 00:11:58.600
I grew up on the
streets of Hollywood

00:11:58.600 --> 00:12:01.310
or, you know, just
outside of West Hollywood.

00:12:01.310 --> 00:12:02.250
And he's like...

00:12:02.250 --> 00:12:05.080
- I used to hang out in
the streets in Hollywood.

00:12:05.080 --> 00:12:08.160
And I told him that I used
to hang out at Oki Dogs,

00:12:08.160 --> 00:12:09.390
for example.

00:12:09.390 --> 00:12:13.750
- "I had a 16-inch mohawk", I
believe is what he said to me.

00:12:13.750 --> 00:12:17.711
And there was a
moment where I just...

00:12:17.711 --> 00:12:18.210
I...

00:12:18.210 --> 00:12:21.130
I just took a deep
breath, like there

00:12:21.130 --> 00:12:23.190
was just a flash
back to the alley

00:12:23.190 --> 00:12:25.500
and just looking back
up at that mohawk.

00:12:25.500 --> 00:12:28.715
- And he said, "Oh, yeah, I used
to hang out at Oki Dogs, too."

00:12:28.715 --> 00:12:29.940
And I said, yeah.

00:12:29.940 --> 00:12:32.850
- I'm like, what do you
remember about Oki Dogs?

00:12:32.850 --> 00:12:34.690
Why did you guys used
to hang out there?

00:12:34.690 --> 00:12:37.980
And he stiffened up.

00:12:37.980 --> 00:12:40.240
- I stopped hanging out
there, as a matter of fact,

00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:45.420
because it... one night it
got really, really violent,

00:12:45.420 --> 00:12:45.990
and I...

00:12:45.990 --> 00:12:49.435
I just didn't feel
comfortable with going back.

00:12:50.520 --> 00:12:53.090
- And I just looked
directly at him,

00:12:53.090 --> 00:12:57.160
and I said, you know who you're
sitting across from, don't you?

00:12:57.160 --> 00:13:00.350
And he said, "I knew
it before you did."

00:13:00.350 --> 00:13:06.700
- And I think it's at that time,
rather than saying, you know,

00:13:06.700 --> 00:13:08.272
"Oh I'm sorry", or whatever...

00:13:08.272 --> 00:13:09.230
I didn't know how to...

00:13:09.230 --> 00:13:10.521
I didn't know how to handle it.

00:13:10.521 --> 00:13:12.390
And I don't think
he did, either.

00:13:12.390 --> 00:13:14.035
And we both went
our separate ways.

00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:16.520
- There was a numbness.

00:13:16.520 --> 00:13:20.110
I think every emotion
in my body shut off.

00:13:25.969 --> 00:13:27.260
I was... you know, I was angry.

00:13:27.260 --> 00:13:29.550
And I was thinking what
I was going to do to him.

00:13:29.550 --> 00:13:32.740
And that thought of what I was
going to do to another person

00:13:32.740 --> 00:13:34.660
actually scared the crap out me.

00:13:34.660 --> 00:13:36.080
Because it's not who I am.

00:13:36.080 --> 00:13:38.370
I'm not saying I don't get
frustrated or I don't get

00:13:38.370 --> 00:13:41.350
angry, but not to
the point of...

00:13:41.350 --> 00:13:45.680
not to that extent of
wanting to cause somebody

00:13:45.680 --> 00:13:46.700
that type of harm.

00:13:48.970 --> 00:13:50.710
- I attempted to
come up with excuses.

00:13:50.710 --> 00:13:53.020
I attempted to say,
"Oh, I wasn't there",

00:13:53.020 --> 00:13:57.450
or, "I was drunk", or making
up excuses and then trying

00:13:57.450 --> 00:14:02.040
to blame the victim -- which
unfortunately is something that

00:14:02.040 --> 00:14:04.635
is very common, is
to blame the victim.

00:14:06.080 --> 00:14:09.690
- I think he wanted
to be forgiven.

00:14:09.690 --> 00:14:11.967
I think the first part of
me trying to forgive him,

00:14:11.967 --> 00:14:14.050
or the first part of me
trying to take those steps

00:14:14.050 --> 00:14:16.119
toward forgiveness
was, "No, because it's

00:14:16.119 --> 00:14:17.160
what you're looking for."

00:14:18.390 --> 00:14:24.890
- After the Museum of Tolerance
found out about the situation,

00:14:24.890 --> 00:14:30.810
they wanted us to try to
do a presentation together.

00:14:32.886 --> 00:14:34.760
- I want to welcome you
guys to Hate to Hope.

00:14:34.760 --> 00:14:35.551
My name is Matthew.

00:14:35.551 --> 00:14:37.190
This is Tim.

00:14:37.190 --> 00:14:39.855
Our presentation evolves
because Tim and I evolve,

00:14:39.855 --> 00:14:43.120
and so the process of
forgiveness evolves.

00:14:43.120 --> 00:14:47.740
- By getting up here and talking
about this and letting other

00:14:47.740 --> 00:14:50.830
people know that
it can be done...

00:14:50.830 --> 00:14:52.430
I didn't want to
do it originally.

00:14:52.430 --> 00:14:57.040
I did not want to do it at all.

00:14:57.040 --> 00:14:58.597
- I don't know why I agreed.

00:14:58.597 --> 00:14:59.430
I don't, you know...

00:14:59.430 --> 00:15:02.000
I wasn't comfortable
being around Tim.

00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:07.630
I wasn't exactly thrilled
to publicly share

00:15:07.630 --> 00:15:10.710
a story that I've denied
at that point for 26 years.

00:15:12.130 --> 00:15:16.330
I really could not believe that
I was sitting across from one

00:15:16.330 --> 00:15:19.625
of 14 guys who believed
that they had killed me

00:15:19.625 --> 00:15:21.000
or at least
attempted to do that.

00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:22.370
It was just so odd.

00:15:22.370 --> 00:15:25.400
You know, there still wasn't
this intention to forgive him.

00:15:25.400 --> 00:15:28.680
I just thought, maybe there's
more to this story that

00:15:28.680 --> 00:15:30.260
could help me if I learned it.

00:15:31.570 --> 00:15:37.350
- All I can do to prove
to somebody that I

00:15:37.350 --> 00:15:42.760
am a different person today is
by the way that I live my life.

00:15:42.760 --> 00:15:46.020
And I watched him
get to know me.

00:15:46.020 --> 00:15:50.980
I watched him learn to trust me.

00:15:50.980 --> 00:15:53.930
The evening that this
attack took place,

00:15:53.930 --> 00:15:59.440
it was my boot that knocked
Matthew unconscious.

00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:04.570
Dealing with that, that
shame and that guilt,

00:16:04.570 --> 00:16:09.220
is something that does
reoccur from time to time.

00:16:09.220 --> 00:16:14.520
- I had to understand
each step that I took.

00:16:14.520 --> 00:16:16.730
I realized he wasn't
going to give it to me.

00:16:16.730 --> 00:16:18.120
I had to get it on my own.

00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:20.266
And it was going to be
through this process.

00:16:20.266 --> 00:16:21.640
I could tell people
that I didn't

00:16:21.640 --> 00:16:23.539
care what they thought
of me, I don't care

00:16:23.539 --> 00:16:24.830
what you think of my sexuality.

00:16:24.830 --> 00:16:25.620
But I didn't mean it.

00:16:25.620 --> 00:16:26.703
Because of course I cared.

00:16:26.703 --> 00:16:28.270
And it affected me.

00:16:28.270 --> 00:16:30.460
I didn't realize until the
end that one of the gifts

00:16:30.460 --> 00:16:32.626
of forgiveness was that I
would be able to say that,

00:16:32.626 --> 00:16:34.480
and when I say it
it comes from here,

00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:36.560
is that it's very hard as one...

00:16:36.560 --> 00:16:40.820
- I started to dwell
on this question of,

00:16:40.820 --> 00:16:42.200
have I forgiven myself?

00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:44.320
Have I forgiven myself?

00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:48.740
Because I felt guilty.

00:16:48.740 --> 00:16:52.320
I did not feel that I
had forgiven myself,

00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:58.970
I don't think... truly, truly,
and had this inner struggle,

00:16:58.970 --> 00:17:02.215
this just being torn up inside.

00:17:05.510 --> 00:17:09.670
What started the whole
meditation thing was,

00:17:09.670 --> 00:17:16.190
I was going through some guilt.

00:17:16.190 --> 00:17:20.430
I wasn't at peace with myself.

00:17:20.430 --> 00:17:25.410
And a very good friend of mine
suggested I started meditating.

00:17:25.410 --> 00:17:28.250
And at first I was
very apprehensive.

00:17:28.250 --> 00:17:29.849
I said, you know,
I'm not a Buddhist.

00:17:29.849 --> 00:17:32.786
I'm not into that kind of
stuff, and that's kind of weird,

00:17:32.786 --> 00:17:33.286
you know.

00:17:33.286 --> 00:17:35.210
I consider myself a
Christian, so I'm not

00:17:35.210 --> 00:17:36.710
going to get involved
with that kind of stuff.

00:17:36.710 --> 00:17:38.210
He said, "Well,
just give it a try."

00:17:40.850 --> 00:17:43.690
It was very strange, because one
of the main ways of forgiving

00:17:43.690 --> 00:17:49.390
myself is by meditating.

00:17:49.390 --> 00:17:51.180
It's definitely
part of my process.

00:17:54.670 --> 00:17:58.850
Every time that Matthew
tells this story, of course,

00:17:58.850 --> 00:18:00.780
I have to relive it, too...

00:18:00.780 --> 00:18:03.740
When I initially
apologized it was

00:18:03.740 --> 00:18:08.200
in front of people, which
was a safe situation.

00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:13.410
Um, for whatever reason,
we just haven't...

00:18:13.410 --> 00:18:14.790
this is our therapy.

00:18:14.790 --> 00:18:18.830
"And I was only 17", and
"I" this, and "I" that,

00:18:18.830 --> 00:18:20.480
and it became about me.

00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:24.840
It all became about
me, which is selfish.

00:18:24.840 --> 00:18:25.830
- We don't know.

00:18:25.830 --> 00:18:28.130
Tim and I have not known
in six or seven years

00:18:28.130 --> 00:18:29.410
whose lives we have changed.

00:18:29.410 --> 00:18:30.110
It's not...

00:18:30.110 --> 00:18:31.510
we don't know.

00:18:31.510 --> 00:18:34.110
- I'd like to commend you,
because I have a son who's gay.

00:18:34.110 --> 00:18:36.604
He had a problem
coming out with me.

00:18:36.604 --> 00:18:38.020
And he says, "Well,
Dad," he goes,

00:18:38.020 --> 00:18:41.060
"I was always afraid
because I never thought

00:18:41.060 --> 00:18:42.890
that you would accept it."

00:18:42.890 --> 00:18:44.681
And I said, son, I
said, you know, I

00:18:44.681 --> 00:18:46.931
don't know what kind of
person does that to their kid.

00:18:49.340 --> 00:18:52.100
- In that beginning
journey of forgiving Tim,

00:18:52.100 --> 00:18:54.940
you know, I also
had to look back.

00:18:54.940 --> 00:18:57.560
And maybe this is why
the process took so long,

00:18:57.560 --> 00:18:59.230
is because I also
had to think about...

00:19:02.176 --> 00:19:03.800
would it be possible
to forgive my mom.

00:19:07.810 --> 00:19:11.980
It was not as hard
as I was making it.

00:19:11.980 --> 00:19:15.510
I needed to forgive
her for what happened.

00:19:15.510 --> 00:19:16.266
And I...

00:19:16.266 --> 00:19:17.890
the only element I
didn't have from her

00:19:17.890 --> 00:19:20.630
was an understanding of why
she had done what she did.

00:19:23.460 --> 00:19:28.720
And sitting down and thinking
that really, truly, my mom --

00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:30.050
I can't judge her.

00:19:30.050 --> 00:19:32.620
Because I don't know what
fractured life she came from.

00:19:32.620 --> 00:19:34.130
She never shared her story.

00:19:36.870 --> 00:19:38.250
And I didn't walk in her shoes.

00:19:42.387 --> 00:19:44.720
- You don't know what the
other person has been through.

00:19:44.720 --> 00:19:47.880
You don't know what tools that
they were given growing up.

00:19:50.430 --> 00:19:53.560
And at the end of the
day, what does that

00:19:53.560 --> 00:19:56.526
do, to hold that
resentment and that anger

00:19:56.526 --> 00:19:58.150
and that hatred
towards another person?

00:19:58.150 --> 00:19:58.983
It just eats you up.

00:19:58.983 --> 00:20:00.450
It's like a cancer inside.

00:20:03.830 --> 00:20:08.370
- In the... in the past year,
I was going through the illness

00:20:08.370 --> 00:20:09.890
of my partner...

00:20:09.890 --> 00:20:10.650
brain cancer.

00:20:12.780 --> 00:20:15.340
And the first person
that was there was Tim.

00:20:15.340 --> 00:20:19.990
As difficult as it is to
watch someone pass away,

00:20:19.990 --> 00:20:25.480
it was made more comforting
having Tim there to let

00:20:25.480 --> 00:20:28.380
me know that it would be OK.

00:20:28.380 --> 00:20:30.130
And he is sort of
is like that family

00:20:30.130 --> 00:20:32.110
that I couldn't reach
out to at that moment.

00:20:35.470 --> 00:20:38.186
- We have to look at both the
perpetrator and the victim

00:20:38.186 --> 00:20:45.496
as human beings, and
being able to change.

00:20:45.496 --> 00:20:47.130
Because if I can change...

00:20:47.130 --> 00:20:51.450
if I can change,
anybody can change.

00:20:51.450 --> 00:20:53.200
- I trust him with my life.

00:20:53.200 --> 00:20:58.299
And this is a guy who was
willing to take my life.

00:20:58.299 --> 00:20:59.840
And I don't think
I would have gotten

00:20:59.840 --> 00:21:05.600
to this point or this
relationship I have with him

00:21:05.600 --> 00:21:08.700
had I not been able
to truly forgive him.

00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:18.950
(MUSIC PLAYING)