WEBVTT

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[sil.]

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Sebastião Salgado. Nationality Brazilian.

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His look suggests that if he had been born

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in another century, he would have
been a navigator, an explorer.

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Profession today, photographer.

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He was trained as an economist and one
day he asked himself whether pictures

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might not reveal as much
or more than statistics.

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[sil.]

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Me, John Berger. Nationality, British.
Profession, writer.

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Trained as a painter. Try to
put into words what I see.

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It was in my kitchen

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that the two of us met to talk together
about Salgado’s latest book of photographs

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called, \"Migrations\".

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It is not pleasant

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to die lord if nothing is left in life

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and in death nothing is
possible except on the basis

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of what is left in life. It
is not pleasant to die lord

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if nothing is left in life and
in death nothing is possible

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except on the basis of what
one could have left in life.

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[sil.]

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It was very close to the
death in this mount. And uh…

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this picture represent a
man, a strong man dying

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by cholera and I saw in this guy.

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Sometimes die per day 10,000 people and uh…

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it’s difficult to see 10,000 people die.
It’s very hard. It’s very hard

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to see 10,000 people. And
10,000 people with good health.

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They are not starving.

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They were dying because they had
lots of another way to save that.

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[music]

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But they don’t have so (inaudible), that
happens in many different places now today.

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And I put myself to question
if there is not a correlation

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between the numbers of television
that you produce and some factors.

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The number that cars that you
produce, the number of profits

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that the (inaudible) does with the number
of people that dies in these moments.

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[music]

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He traveled for six years

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visiting 43 countries. Every where he
went, he found people on the move.

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Looking for somewhere, some
way to earn their living

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and feed their children.

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During those six years,

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the economist became a photographer.

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Took pictures of the face of globalization.

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[music]

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I saw this.

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This is our reality

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and we must assumed.

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[music]

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What we are calling now globalization,

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globalization was made. By institutions
that was the big agents of these

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international monetary
fund as the world bank,

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as all financial system that was create

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in the end to organize a way to produce

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and to transfer funds and to
create profit around all these.

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And what happens

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from this moment that it began to change
all the system is this enormous rule

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out Exodus that people are
pushed out of the fields

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and the (inaudible) is
about 110 million peasants

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that are pushed outside
of their land each year.

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[music]

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And the question that I put myself today

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is what power to the globalized people?

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This book, these pictures
is a globalization picture.

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These are the globalized people. These
are sample of the globalized people.

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[music]

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Globalization means many things.

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At one level, it talks of trade
which since the 16th century

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has exchanged goods and
now increasingly ideas

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and information across the globe.
But also globalization

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is a view

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of the world. It is an opinion about man

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and why men are on the world.

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One in five

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of all the people on the globe
benefit from this system.

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Four in five suffer in different degrees

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from the new unnecessary poverty.

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[music]

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Part of the fanaticism
of the economic system

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which we now call globalization,
part of its bigotry

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has always occurs with
bigotry is that it pretends

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and it is a lie. It pretends that

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no alternative is possible
and it’s simply not true

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and it is set in the face

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of the whole of human history.

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[music]

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And this is a, uh… at Argentinian

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(inaudible). We have to pass
from the kingdom of need

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to the kingdom of freedom.
From that of theology

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to that of religion.
From capitalism to life.

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From the economics of poverty

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to the poverty of economics.
From hunger to you.

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[music]

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This phenomenon in Africa

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to have more and more refugees,

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more and more disintegrations
of countries has to do

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with this new economic system.

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[music]

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When you see the peasants
what they received

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against their production? The
goods that they produce,

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they pay you to concern them.
When you fix the price

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of this product that are not fixed, not
fixed in Liberia, is not fixed in Brazil.

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It’s fixed in London. It’s fixed in Europe
by trading companies that fix this price.

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And they don’t take into
consideration the needs

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of the life of this population
and what happens? They take each

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(inaudible) for a population to stand bigger.
The problem is an economical problem

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in this time (inaudible).

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[music]

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[sil.]

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I know these people from Rwanda for long.
I came to Rwanda,

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the first time in 1971 as an economist.
I came to work in the tea plantations

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and uh… the tea plantations
were very great way of leave.

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One was not under developed
count was not a full count.

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Was a bit loping count.

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And I came back

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to see this tea plantation. Of course,
all was burnt, all was destroyed.

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The tea that we make 20
years to make it to grow

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or more was burnt all these people

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made was lost. These people
were in (inaudible), in death.

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[music]

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And the,

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and this moment, the days, that I took
these pictures. I was sure that evolution

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was oppose to assess of the inclination.

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Often, I put myself the question that uh…

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what is evolution? Evolution can
be any kind of thing. Can be in

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any direction of the inclination.
We can evolute negatively

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going to the death, going
to the final point,

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going to the most brutal end
and we adapted with us.

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[sil.]

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And I put myself, if the real intelligence

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of human being, the human
specimen is not his

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capacity of adaptation and these people after
a month they began to be adaptive with death.

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[sil.]

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When, when you

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were believing that there
was a historical evolution

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umm… towards the better

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which is undoubted when you were there.

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This vision of the better umm…

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it is a continual struggle

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to which there is no end.

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And it is also a struggle against despair

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which is very easily provoked.

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[music]

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I mean, one of the things which I think is

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extraordinary about your work
is that uh… in a strange way,

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in all these pictures, one feels

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in your vision the word yes.

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Not that you approve of that.
But that you say yes

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because it exists.

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[music]

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Of course,

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you hope that, that yes will provoke to
the people who look at the picture a no.

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But this no,

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it can only come after one has
said I have to live with this.

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[music]

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But to live with this world is
first of all to take it in.

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The opposite of living with this
world is actually indifference

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or a turning away.

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[music]

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And this is very, very connected
with the idea of hope.

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[music]

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People so often, they say ah,

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you mean, optimism. But optimism
has nothing to do with hope.

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The point about hope is
that hope is some thing

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which actually occurs in very dark moments.
Uh… it is, it is like a flame

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in the darkness. It isn’t like
a confidence in a promise.

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[music]

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[music]

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As you say, there is for
me a lot of hope here.

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All these people that I
photographed, all of them,

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they lived in a stable
way and what happens,

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these people that you see in the
picture, they can’t have a normal life.

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They are in a transition
and what they have is then

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is just a small lies of hope

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and if we just hope that are try to
get another stable position of life.

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[music]

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[music]

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And I don’t believe that

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they need any compassion.

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If the person look to these pictures
just to raise a compassion,

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I believe that I failed completely in the
way to show this and what I want that

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people understand that
we can have a solution.

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If we are in this situation,

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is a situation that all together, we
choose to be there because a very few

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of this person that’s a photograph. They are
responsible for the situation that they are in now.

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Most of them, don’t
understand why they are in

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(inaudible) with thousands of others.
They lose their house

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of the less break because they
were bonded five destroyed,

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and they are in the road. We, they don’t
understand the real amount of why.

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They are not reasoned with that.
It’s other thing.

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[music]

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[music]

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If you add up all the instance

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in this book, that’s one
second of pictures,

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probably one second of ten, no more than
this because if you get an average of 350,

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a second. This picture
that I shoot one picture.

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Probably here we have about all
together one second of pictures.

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[music]

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In this for me is the magic

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of this kind of photography because
in this fraction of second,

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in this one second that you have here inside, you
believe, I believe that you understand very well,

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what is going on in the planet
today by these pictures.

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[sil.]

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That is an extraordinary one.

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That’s what I’m looking for. That is… That,
it’s for me is a kind of emotion that uh… is,

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is this man, he was teacher
and he was completely,

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completely in despair and uh…

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nobody was really there to understand him

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and on their community was there
to, to understand what they lost.

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[music]

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That makes me think of this
very prophetic uh… philosopher,

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a woman who was called (inaudible). Umm…

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and there is one little thing she wrote as I would
like to read because it’s a kind of summing up,

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I think of the what you
were saying Sebastião.

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There are only two services which
images can offer the afflicted.

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One is to find the story

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which expresses the truth
of their affliction.

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The words which can give
resonance through the crust

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of external circumstances to the cry

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which is always inaudible.

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Why am I being hurt?

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[sil.]

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[music]

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[music]

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This speak on what about statistics.
We don’t speak

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about real feelings. I
meant part of pictures

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that are taken in this book, I
came out to one year ago to Kosovo

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and uh… I was mine, this exactly this.

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[music]

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And this war, was a war

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that gives information, statistic
information. Statistic information about

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the number of bombers that do
the bombing course of war.

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The numbers of pilots

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that are used to attack Serbia.

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But we don’t speak about feelings.
We don’t speak about real people.

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We don’t speak real about
suffering of people.

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[music]

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And this people crossing this
border from Kosovo inside Albania.

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Refugee was there waiting for people,
were receiving them with open arms

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to bring them to their country, to bring
them to France, to bring them to German,

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to the United States. But they were wrong.

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Nobody was waiting there.
We made a big war,

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we spend billions of dollars in their name.
We made nothing for them.

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[music]

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Their emotion was then

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lost in the ground, in the back of
their tractors where they live,

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where they create a refugee camps
in the back of their tractors

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and, and like this, that were their home.
Nobody was waiting,

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and few people waiting then.

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And that is the point
where the emotions are.

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Nothing can justify what is happening.

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But as long as it happens, it is
necessary, it should be taken in.

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Because it is necessary that the inner life
of man, that the life which he creates

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with in his mind resemble as finely

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as it is to say truthfully as possible.

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The actual world.

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The whole history of art and philosophy is a history
of a long and extraordinarily hard struggle

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to make this possible.

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[music]

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Mostly,

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when we see images of the catastrophes

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that are occurring, we see them
in very sensational images

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which pull people to look.

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And it is necessary to pull the maximum
people to look in order to after the image

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to sell the maximum of commodities
in the publicity that follows.

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[sil.]

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[music]

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That if we accept what is happening,

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then not always but often
one is faced to face

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with the tragic.

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[music]

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And what happens

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in face of the tragic is that

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people accept it and cry out against it.

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Although, it won’t change.

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[music]

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And they cry out very, very
frequently to the sky.

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[music]

00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:14.999
And in many, many of your pictures,

00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:19.999
the sky is very important. People
who have lost all sense of tragedy

00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:24.999
simply look at the skies and say what a beautiful
set, what a beautiful day they call this is.

00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:29.999
What a well chosen moment.

00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:34.999
[music]

00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:39.999
But it isn’t a question of that.

00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:44.999
The sky is the only thing that can be
appealed to in certain circumstances.

00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:53.000
[music]

00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:59.999
Who listens to them in the sky?

00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:04.999
Perhaps God.

00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:10.000
Perhaps the dead. Perhaps even history.

00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:28.000
[music]

00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:39.999
In these big chapters, there
are as many mysteries

00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:44.999
as there are people. When I really
knows somebody, when actually

00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:49.999
is recognizing their mystery and
the unknowable in that person.

00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:54.999
Maybe that’s even where love begins.
Umm… and in, in your, in your pictures,

00:36:55.000 --> 00:36:59.999
there are many such moments
what I call mystery.

00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:04.999
Uh… like, like this picture.

00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:13.000
[music]

00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:29.999
Perhaps sometimes the opportunity to look
what the vision said and all that is

00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:34.999
probably (inaudible) happen
in a place of the planet.

00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:39.999
You sit in your table, eating your dinner. You
have the impression that you are participating.

00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:44.999
But in reality, you are just
looking, you are not participating.

00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:49.999
Because you don’t know this story,
how this happen. You just know

00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:54.999
the effect that’s happened there.

00:37:55.000 --> 00:38:03.000
[music]

00:38:50.000 --> 00:38:54.999
We must see that this person lives

00:38:55.000 --> 00:38:59.999
a full life around their family.

00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:04.999
Knowing about their past,

00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:09.999
hoping what would be their future.
They live a full life

00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:14.999
inside a tragedy

00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:19.999
of the size of the planet.

00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:25.000
[music]

00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:39.999
[sil.]

00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:44.999
And I believe we can understand

00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:49.999
and understand with the light that is there.
The assess of the destruction that is there.

00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:54.999
We can probably simulate these what
happened and said one word before.

00:39:55.000 --> 00:39:59.999
And going back and try to understand

00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:04.999
who is this people?

00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:09.999
These probably is a privilege that as a
photographer has. A photographer that goes

00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:14.999
and spend time, spend
long time with the people

00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:19.999
that live with the people, that spent nights because
nights, we don’t photograph. By sit around this picket

00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:24.999
and people telling what
really happened to them.

00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:33.000
[music]

00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:49.999
Sometimes, sometimes I
put myself the question,

00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:54.999
if for me was not more
important meeting people,

00:40:55.000 --> 00:40:59.999
new people, the people allowed
you to come inside their life.

00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:04.999
The way that you receive in these pictures, that
sometimes people call you to give the pictures.

00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:09.999
People come to you, to your lens,
asked to your camera to speak

00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:14.999
in a microphone and that’s
incredible and you assume

00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:19.999
a big responsibility with the people that you
photograph to tell people about the stories.

00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:24.999
That means, you must show these pictures.

00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:33.000
[music]

00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:44.999
I don’t want

00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:49.999
with these pictures create bad conscience
to the people that look to them.

00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:54.999
Because majority of people that look to
them, they have a proper house, they,

00:41:55.000 --> 00:41:59.999
they have a work, they have health.
It’s correct what they have.

00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:04.999
The only difference that we need to
have for all the planet to have.

00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:13.000
[music]

00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:44.999
[sil.]

00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:49.999
How did these portraits
come about Sebastião?

00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:54.999
Well, I was making these pictures of uh…

00:42:55.000 --> 00:42:59.999
general story. Childrens are always present

00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:04.999
and once I was working in Mozambique
in the center of Mozambique

00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:09.999
in a camp, big camp of displaced population

00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:14.999
where most of them were children because uh…
in Mozambique we had about 350,000 children

00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:19.999
that was lose from their families.

00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:24.999
And I had these children doing their real
big part to be in the pictures because

00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:29.999
the way of children is to be in the pictures.
Natural, it was normal. And I had one idea.

00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:34.999
Ask them, I said guys, I do a
picture of each one of you.

00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:40.000
I really do and after that you
behave normally and let me work.

00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:54.999
And I began to see the demands that
these children came out of the group

00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:59.999
sit in front of the lens. They become
individuals. Really, they become individuals.

00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:04.999
[music]

00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:09.999
They were innocent, they were pure

00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:14.999
but from their eyes was possible
to see what they lived,

00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:19.999
what was their life.

00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:24.999
[music]

00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:29.999
When these kids

00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:34.999
were there before the camera,

00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:39.999
it seems to me that they are still
there, presenting themselves,

00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:44.999
you know, saying,

00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:49.999
I am here. This is me.

00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:54.999
I exist. I exist, exactly. I exist.

00:44:55.000 --> 00:45:03.000
[music]

00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:34.999
But also something else is happening.

00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:39.999
Because they’re looking at
Sebastião and they are looking

00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:44.999
at the camera and they know that they are

00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:49.999
looking at the world.

00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:54.999
And so they address a question.

00:45:55.000 --> 00:45:59.999
What are you? You, out there

00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:04.999
in the world.

00:46:05.000 --> 00:46:09.999
Or is there anything else out there?

00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:18.000
[music]

00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:34.999
The priorities according to which
we perceive and react to the world

00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:39.999
might be changeable.

00:46:40.000 --> 00:46:44.999
Kids, the true specters of hope

00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:49.999
look at us from the five
continents and your photos.

00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:54.999
One after another and another.
But who’s hope?

00:46:55.000 --> 00:46:59.999
Who needs who the most?

00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:04.999
They us or we them?

00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:13.000
[music]

00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:44.999
I’d like now to uh… you know,

00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:49.999
the great uh… Peruvian poet (inaudible).

00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:54.999
Umm… and I want to read uh…

00:47:55.000 --> 00:47:59.999
a small part of the poem by him. Umm…

00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:04.999
it is not pleasant to die lord

00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:09.999
if my thing is left in life. And in death

00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:14.999
nothing is possible except on the
basis of what is left in life.

00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:19.999
[music]

00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:24.999
It is not pleasant to die lord

00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:29.999
if nothing is left in life. And in death

00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:34.999
nothing is possible except on the basis
of what I could have left in life.

00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:43.000
[music]

00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:34.999
Probably to do a book like
this is a wrong form.

00:49:35.000 --> 00:49:39.999
Probably to do a few is a wrong way.
Probably to do shows of posters

00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:44.999
is not correct. But I sincerely

00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:49.999
want to know what’s correct because if it’s
correct, I believe that I must go and do,

00:49:50.000 --> 00:49:54.999
do it because I believe that
you must have a responsibility

00:49:55.000 --> 00:49:59.999
and the time that you are living, you
wanted to provoke this discussion,

00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:04.999
to provoke this debate and the debate that
I believed each one must participate on it

00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:09.999
and must have a responsibility on it
because we probably want to survive

00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:14.999
this very specimen. We must
probably get a proper direction

00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:19.999
where we go. We must choose another way.
Because what I saw

00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:24.999
in these pictures. What I look in these
pictures, this is not a proper way.

00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:29.999
This is not a correct way that you choose.

00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:35.000
[music]