WEBVTT

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[sil.]

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Can you tell us what this object is

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and how you describe it? Well, the
painting is it’s title is calm sea,

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it is one of a series of
seascapes that Courbet produced

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we believe during the Autumn of 1866
in September or October of that year

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when he was staying at
the villa of (inaudible)

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Well, truthfully, we don’t know a lot
his history which is very frustrating.

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We know there is part of his collection in France
it actually did not really resurface again

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until 1962 when it appeared in
an exhibition in (inaudible)

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Koons museum Gustave Courbet exhibition and it
would belong to the gallery (inaudible) in Zurich.

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It had been in a private French collection previously at
that point. We don’t know for how long it’s all very…

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Vegas is the often times the case.
The painting was acquired

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three years later 1965… excuse me,
Paul Mellon for his private collection

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and remained in his position until he
deplete to the national gallery in 1985.

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So it is a painting…

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[sil.]

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So… We said no names. Sorry.

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Like I told you before, you know, I don’t mind
telling you what I know of the story ‘cause,

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it’s… you know, it’s very interesting story, but I
don’t wanna be associated with it not personally,

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I’m still involved in art dealing and
that would be against my interest.

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Well, back in those days,
1978, I was obviously younger

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and uh… I work for some time as an
assistant to various art gallery owners

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here in Manhattan, excuse me. And during the
spring of ‘78, I was working at this place

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that is just open in Soho(ph) the WX gallery
which was run by a guy name Allen Wilson.

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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Well, maybe a week or 10
days after the openings

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so that’s what late June 1978, early one
afternoon. I see this huge black limousine arrived

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and stopped just across the street from the
gallery with doors open and out of the limo

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comes this very rich, very notorious art
collector, and he come with this like, you know,

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Courbet(ph) his to visit the exhibition. He own one of
the original painting you see the seascape by Courbet

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and word had reached his ears that there
was another version of that same painting

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to be seen in town amazingly well reproduced by
this totally unknown Czech artist Pavel Novak.

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So the whole gang enters the gallery, right and
the old man walks straight to the Novak’s Courbet

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stands in front of it and begins
to stare at it without a word

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for one long minute then
another, then another.

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I mean, he must have sit there for whole hour still
without a word and he scrutinized the whole painting,

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his eyes were (inaudible). And everyone
around seem to be like holding their breaths,

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they was… saw something. And after about an hour, so we
suddenly turns his back on the painting and leaves the room

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followed by all his employees. And then,
you know, a few weeks later completely

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(inaudible) these cops stormed into the place, they cease
all the account books, and they take the pictures down.

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They stuffed in to like this big evidence bags
they brought and as they go. We didn’t understand,

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you know, a thing. It was later when we brought down
for interrogation that we began to figure things out.

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It was all because of the Courbet. Apparently,
you know, after his visit to the gallery

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this collector began to have serious doubts about the
Courbet that was hanging in his own New York home,

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and it became like an obsession for him, you
know, this guy spending one sleepless night

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after the other to staring at his painting, looking
for the detail that will collaborate his suspicions.

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So finally, you know, he
has it examined by experts

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who concluded that indeed it is
a fake painted in recent years.

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So this collector very powerful man anyway
he files the complaint against the gallery

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for reception of stolen goods. And the cops
by that whole story next thing (inaudible).

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Then this new team of experts examines the
Courbet that was part of the Novak exhibition

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declared it to be the original that had
been stolen from the old man’s collection

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and replaced with a forgery inside the
man’s home, almost under his very nose.

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Well, the old man got his Courbet back
and as do the others the Rembrandt,

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the (inaudible) I think the feds got hold
of that one. But what happened after that

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I really have no idea.

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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[music]

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[music]

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[sil.]

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There is lots of stories
always about this Van Gogh,

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I have one story about this painting
about the Czech artist from the ‘70s,

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Pavel Novak if you heard of him, he had
a modern art exhibition in New York

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and he said it was a stolen art collection and
there was one version of this Green Wheat,

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and then nobody ever know that’s why uh… I don’t know
the story. No. No. No. You never heard this story.

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I think it’s not a problem (inaudible)
it was exhibit in France,

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America and… and was here
some people from (inaudible)

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they wish, maybe gallery want to sell,

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but they never. So it was
always… it’s in mind and…

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It’s… it’s not… not problem, I’m sorry. We’re
National Gallery and we exhibit only original.

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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Often the question is posed if
these very famous painting,

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let’s say, the man with the
gold helmet in Britain.

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And now it’s no Rembrandt’s, they sell, it doesn’t matter
it’s still the same painting it’s just as beautiful.

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It is not, because the beauty
of that object is partly

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the projection of your… your idea
of your great master who made it.

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The moment that projection fails,
you see it with totally new eyes.

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When I talk about how paints suggests

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space roundness, uh… liveliness
but at the same time

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umm… the way the things are bound

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in one shape and… and then grouped
which related them other shape

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that is his mind, that is
his… that is his… his,

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that is his genius to say that.
And that is something which you

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at some point start to recognize

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in this recognition, the
memory of what you seem

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before playing an important part.
Now memory is a very tricky thing

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when you look at this,

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it becomes… the paint becomes reality, this
becomes you can breath almost the air,

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it becomes a tree, it becomes
a… a bridge etcetera.

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And the moment this reality is

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evoked in your head the paint
changes in your memory

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because your minds observed it

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among all the trees you have ever seen and all
the bridges you have ever seen, so to say.

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And what means that if you then
think again of the painting

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and try to evoke it again as a
piece of wood with paint on it

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in your head it had changed.
You can never evoke that again

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and it is very strange experience.
And so I’m…

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I’m very modest about this
recognition thing, you know,

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I… I… I would never would
answer, well, for 39 years,

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you know, I recognize it that’s not
how it works because again my eyes

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also confuse my memories, confuse.
So you know, I don’t romanticize

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my… my own love. I love
it because I know it

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very since very long. And
I have so often studied

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the hand, etcetera. I can’t help loving
it, but my love is not proof of anything.

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[sil.]

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(inaudible) had been swap. I think you heard the story… No, I
didn’t. Pavel Novak exhibition. And I wonder that was ‘78,

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thing is that there was no
official comments from anyone

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expect for that collector, the… the
Courbet owner. And I was wondering

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if during the course of your research you heard this
story or because this painting here on the right

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was connected to it. And I don’t know
if… if (inaudible) in that enquiry.

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Yeah. Same one or… Yes,
still the same work. Yes.

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You examined before and still after.
There’s no…

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Yeah, good question could happen yet.

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Uh… We examined it, for instance,

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the wood counting, the thread and
the counting of the panel happened

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it was the first time in, say,

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1960… 1968. And the second time in the…

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in the ‘70s or early ‘80, I think in…
even in the ‘80s I forgot the date.

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And we say still the same wood rings, you know,
and this can’t be… you can’t swap paintings

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and have the same wood rings you can prove
into this case that it’s not… not spot.

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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[non-English narration]

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And say it was \"stolen… Ah!
\"Stolen Art\" \"Stolen Art\" Yes.

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You know the story. And on the… on
the list of paintings this one…

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(inaudible). Yes, yes. And
probably is there from the…

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the… the images I saw is
something like this but then…

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[sil.]

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I don’t, uh… I don’t know what to
say about it. Maybe this could be,

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maybe not because it was… it was very
difficult to… to see these painting

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and it couldn’t be reproduced before,

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before, before beginning of… 20th century?

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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Ms. Lorey? Yes, Mr. Novak.
Yes, this is Pavel Novak.

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I’m sorry about all this but
it’s necessary, you know…

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You’re a wanted man now. Isn’t
that the dream of every artist?

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In that sense, the
exhibition was a success.

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Yes, but isn’t it a problem for
you to get such recognition

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as a criminal more than as an artist?
That’s a good question,

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but I think true artist illegal anyway,

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it’s always a question of

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uh… redefining your own rules. And
this concept of reappropriation

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is that one of these personal
rules that you define.

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Reappropriation, yes.

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You Know, when I was a kid in Prague,

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I went to the museums and
there I saw all this beauty

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(inaudible).

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I don’t know maybe at
first it was just colors

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because the wall around me was
a bit gray in those days.

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I spend hours looking at these pictures.
And when the museum closed its doors,

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they really had to kick me out

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and I thought it was unfair and stupid.

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I thought museums should be open at night.

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And as I traveled home across town, I
tried to keep this pictures in my mind,

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and when I came home, I paint it

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from memories. Fragments of what I had seen

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to recapture some of the beauty that
had been flashed before my eyes,

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and then, taken away.

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And finally, I made sure that

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uh… in a way my master would
always travel with me.

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So you stole this beauty from others,
from the works of these old masters?

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All these are stories
surrounding the paintings,

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all these biographic
speculation about the artist.

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In the end, they serve one main purpose,

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you know, they will look
at the painting and say…

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[non-English narration]

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They don’t even know how to
look at the painting anymore.

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Let’s just reshuffle things, you know,

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create a little tails or

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a confusion so that all
these art professionals

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will suddenly not know anymore
what is in front of their eyes.

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[sil.]

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But uh… just for truth sake,

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did you paint these pictures yourself
or did you actually steel them?

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Ah! Ms. Lorey,

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you have asked some excellent questions.
Now you also want to get the answers.

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I’m afraid I have to go now.

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It was nice talking to you. Just
a minute, Mr. Novak. Goodbye.

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[sil.]

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[non-English narration]

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I want to make a copy of this.

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Yes, sure, man. Definitely. If I
can do this right now (inaudible)…

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Yeah, yeah, sure.

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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What’s important…

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You mustn’t believe everything
you hear about paintings.

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We knock ourselves out
chasing the original image.

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But the original image is already there.

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It’s at the back of the retina of the eye.

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The original…

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it’s there somewhere.

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And on that beauty, there’s
still no copyright.

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[sil.]