WEBVTT

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(dramatic music)

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Revealed by the CBS program, 60 Minutes

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in the spring of 2004, these photos provoked indignation

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and fury all over the world.

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The snapshots were taken by GIs proud of their atrocities.

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At the time, the US Army spokesman in Iraq

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interviewed by 60 Minutes termed them bad apples.

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That night, no one was in

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a position to contest

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the bad apple theory.

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What went wrong?

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Don\'t judge your army based on the actions of a few.

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(dramatic music)

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In Washington,

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the Abu Ghraib scandal caused panic.

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The Senate Armed Forces Committee held an emergency hearing.

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Witness number one was Donald Rumsfeld,

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Secretary of Defense.

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At the time, the Republicans controlled

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all the US administration machinery,

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and they clung to the bad apple theory for dear life.

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This first hearing, like all of those which would follow

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in the next four years, was broadcast live

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from Capitol Hill on C-SPAN.

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The Committee of the Armed Services meets today

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in the first of a series of hearings

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to receive testimony regarding the mistreatment

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of Iraqi prisoners by some, I repeat,

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some elements and certain personnel

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of the Armed Forces of the United States

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in violation of US and international laws.

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Mr. Secretary.

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Mr. Chairman, I know you join me today

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in saying to the world, judge us by our actions.

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Watch how Americans, watch how a democracy

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deals with a wrongdoing and with scandal.

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And the pain of acknowledging and correcting

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our own mistakes and our own weaknesses.

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I\'d like to know Mr. Secretary,

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were any of the abuses that occurred in Iraq

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encouraged, condoned, or permitted

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by Department of Defense regulations or policy?

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Certainly not to my knowledge.

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And when one looks at the abuses and the cruelty,

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the idea that you would have regulations

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that would permit, or condone,

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or encourage that type of thing

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is just not comprehensible.

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(dramatic music)

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I will faithfully execute the office

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of President of the United States.

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The duties of the office on which I am about to enter.

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Preserve, protect, and defend

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the Constitution of the United States.

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Preserve, protect, and defend

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the Constitution of the United States.

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So help me God.

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God bless you all.

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And God bless America.

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(crowd cheering)

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It all started in the utmost secrecy

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just after the attack on September 11th, 2001.

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Oh my God, oh my God!

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Jesus fucking Christ!

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That day four jets

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were hijacked by suicide bombers

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from the terrorist organization, Al Qaeda,

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led by Muslim extremist, Bin Laden.

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Oh my God!

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Claiming over 3,000 lives,

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it was the largest terrorist attack

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ever carried out on US soil.

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Oh my God.

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I was working an an assistant

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to National Security Advisor, Condoleezza Rice.

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So I was in the White House on that day.

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And after the planes hit the World Trade Center

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I was evacuated with Condy Rice, the Vice President,

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and others into the bunker at the White House.

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Oh!
Oh no!

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Oh no!

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The whole building\'s gone.

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(woman screaming)

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Holy fuckin\' Jesus!

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It was clear that we were in a new paradigm,

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this war on terror paradigm.

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It was something that happened immediately.

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The country, the government

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moved to war footing instantaneously.

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The search is underway for those

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who are behind these evil acts,

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and we stand together to win the war against terrorism.

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(dramatic piano music)

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Whatever is necessary.

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That was the watchword

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of the Republican administration meeting at Camp David,

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the US presidential retreat, four days after the attacks.

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This exceptional footage shows gathered at the same table

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the leaders of the four centers of US power

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about to lead the world\'s oldest democracy

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into the use of torture.

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First, the White House with President George Bush

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and his vice president, Dick Cheney.

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Facing them, Condoleezza Rice, National Security Advisor.

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Then, the Department of Justice led by John Ashcroft,

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on whom depends the Office of Legal Counsel,

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the agency in charge of making sure

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White House decisions are legal.

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Next, the Department of Defense, or Pentagon,

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run by Donald Rumsfeld.

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Finally the Department of State,

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in charge of foreign affairs,

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headed by General Colin Powell.

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That day, a pact was sealed

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in the name of the war on terror.

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We will find those who did it.

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We will smoke \'em out of their holes.

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We\'ll get \'em running.

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And we\'ll bring \'em to justice.

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This is an administration that will not talk

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about how we gather intelligence,

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how we know what we\'re gonna do, nor what our plans are.

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The United States will do what it takes to win this war.

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We heard the term, war on terrorism, war on terror,

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global war on terror, and we didn\'t like it at all.

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I didn\'t like it as a former military man,

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31 years in the Army,

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because you don\'t make war on instruments.

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You don\'t make war on methods.

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You make war on people and states.

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So this is a very ambiguous definition.

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It\'s like war on drugs, it\'s like war on poverty.

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These are things you can never win,

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and so they\'re perpetual.

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In fact, we addressed that concern

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to Dr. Rice and to the White House

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about this is a very poor set of terminology.

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And what we got back in essence as an answer

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was this is politics.

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This is what the American people understand.

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One of the attitudes that I saw inside the government

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was a view that in order to combat this terrorist enemy

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the United States would have to resort to tactics,

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to practices that would involve getting our hands dirty, and

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that would involve taking decisions

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that some might question ethically, morally, legally

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in order to defeat this terrorist enemy.

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(mid-tempo music)

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Immediately after the Camp David meeting,

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Vice President Dick Cheney indicated

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what was in store, speaking on NBC.

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But the nation was in such emotional turmoil

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few people recognized all the implications of what he said.

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We also have to work sort of the dark side, if you will.

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We\'ve got to spend time in the shadows

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in the intelligence world.

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It is a mean, nasty, dangerous, dirty business out there,

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and we have to operate in that arena.

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But we need to make certain that we have not tied the hands,

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if you will, of our intelligence communities

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in terms of accomplishing the mission.

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In a way it\'s interesting because he was being honest.

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He announced basically to the whole country,

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we\'re gonna do something in secret,

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it\'s gonna be a secret war.

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And you can\'t say the country didn\'t know,

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\'cause he told people that.

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And then they disappeared.

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We were very vulnerable.

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Americans were afraid.

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How did this happen?

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And here\'s the vice president of the United States

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taking full advantage of that

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and exploiting our vulnerability

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by saying we all want to visit the dark side,

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we\'re gonna get to these people who did this to us.

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And it was the beginning of this march to war,

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continuing to exploit our vulnerability,

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and the President saying,

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if you\'re not with us, you\'re against us.

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So everybody fell in line.

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I don\'t want to be against them.

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But those are your only two choices?

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And there were very few of our elected officials

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in Washington, D.C. questioning any of this.

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And now they\'re the agree button on every vote that came up.

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(audience applauding)

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Every nation in every region now has a decision to make.

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Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists.

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(audience applauding)

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(engines roaring)

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Two weeks later, the United States

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and their allies launched a war against the Taliban regime

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that had controlled Afghanistan since 1995.

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Officially the goal was to capture Bin Laden and his men,

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who had opened training camps all over the country.

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(singing in a foreign language)

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On November 13th, 2001, the Taliban regime was overthrown.

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(crowd cheering)

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While the Afghans slowly awoke from the nightmare,

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dozens of bearded armed suspects were arrested.

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The American Army and CIA

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were in the front lines of the battle.

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The war against terror had only just begun.

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I have to say that all you need to know

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is that there was a before 9/11

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and there was an after 9/11.

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After 9/11 the gloves come off.

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From the beginning, interrogation, intelligence collection

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from individual detainees was always

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an important motivating factor.

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I think having said that one of the priorities

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of the government was to prevent future attacks,

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it was always believed from the beginning

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that one important way of doing so

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was to get inside the heads of Al Qaeda members,

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to question, to interrogate detainees.

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And I think there was concern from the beginning

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that the so-called old rules, Geneva Conventions,

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our criminal laws, that those old rules

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would be an obstacle to interrogation.

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And I think this again is what was meant

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by the gloves coming off.

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Signed in 1949 and adopted today

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by 194 nations, the four Geneva Conventions

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are the cornerstone of international human rights.

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The third convention concerns prisoners of war.

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That is to say, the servicemen captured on the battlefield.

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POW status is not automatically granted.

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To obtain it, a combatant must possess a distinctive sign,

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carry arms openly, and conform

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to the laws and customs of war.

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In turn, he is entitled to certain privileges,

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such as the right to communicate with his family

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and to receive packages.

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Article 17 states that every prisoner of war

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is bound to give only his surname, first names,

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rank, and date of birth.

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In other terms, a POW cannot

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be interrogated for intelligence purposes.

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Finally, the four Geneva Conventions

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include the same common Article 3,

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which forbids mutilation, cruel treatment, and torture,

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regardless of the prisoner\'s status.

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In 1996, the American Congress

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voted in the War Crimes Act, whereby any violation

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of the Geneva Conventions, and notably common Article 3,

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carries the penalty of death or life imprisonment.

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After September 11th, the Bush administration

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sought to secretly get rid of the Geneva Conventions.

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The plan was spearheaded by Dick Cheney,

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according to whom intelligence

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was the only weapon to use in the war on terror.

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There\'s really no question but that there\'s one person

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who takes the central role in introducing this new policy

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of harsh treatment, of abuse of detainees.

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And that person is Dick Cheney,

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the Vice President of the United States.

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I spoke early on with figures

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from the intelligence community who described to me

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in the first six weeks after 9/11,

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Vice President Cheney spending days on end

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at Langley at the CIA headquarters

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demanding that they get tough,

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that they use dark techniques.

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In particular, Vice President Cheney was very impressed

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with the techniques that were used

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by the Egyptian government

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in beating down the Muslim Brotherhood.

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And he thought these techniques were extremely effective,

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it worked very, very well, and the US should follow the lead

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taken by the Mubarack government in Egypt.

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I don\'t think Dick Cheney will ever

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be held accountable except by his maker.

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And I hope Dick meets the devil in his afterlife.

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\'Cause the devil will be a good friend for Dick.

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(mid-tempo music)

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To keep the White House immune

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from prosecution, Cheney relied

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on ultraconservative Republican lawyers.

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During the hearings that followed the Abu Ghraib

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Iraqi prison scandal, they were the ones

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who had to answer questions from Congress.

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Dick Cheney and George Bush were never held accountable

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because they are protected by an immunity

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that Congress has always refused to lift.

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That was the loophole and the limit of the hearings.

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They were not a court investigation,

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but a well-framed exercise in democracy

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content to question only certain players and witnesses

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and entailing no consequences.

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Today we commence the third in our series of hearings

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on the role of administration lawyers

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in the development and implementation

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of interrogation rules, which have drawn criticism here

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in the United States and around the world.

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These policies have been kept from the Congress

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and the American people by assertions of secrecy,

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assorted privileges, and flat refusals to disclose

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what has been done and why, even in classified settings.

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That is unacceptable.

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Today we are joined by two

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of the architects of those policies.

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If the witnesses would please stand

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and raise your right hands.

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It\'s true and correct to the best

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of your knowledge, information, and belief.

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It is.
It is.

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Thank you.

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Let the record reflect that the witnesses--

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This is David Addington,

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Dick Cheney\'s chief of staff, nicknamed Cheney\'s Cheney.

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And John Yoo, number two at the OLC,

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the Justice Department office in charge

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of providing legal counsel to the White House.

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Mr. Addington, Professor Yoo is quoted as saying

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that under certain circumstances it would be proper

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and legal to torture a detainee\'s child

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to get necessary information.

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Do you agree with that?

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I don\'t agree or disagree with it, Mr. Chairman.

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I don\'t plan to address it.

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You\'re seeking a legal opinion, and as we told you

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in exhibit four, I\'m not here

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to render legal advice to your committee.

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You do have attorneys of your own to give you legal advice.

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Could the president order a suspect buried alive?

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Mr. Chairman, I don\'t think that I have ever--

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I\'m asking you that.

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Given you the advice that the president

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could bury somebody alive.

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Another of the operators

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was Pentagon head legal advisor,

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Jim Haynes, Donald Rumsfeld\'s henchman.

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You have just said, Mr. Haynes,

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that you were the senior lawyer

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for the Department of Defense, correct?

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Yes, ma\'am, that\'s correct.

339
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And so you had a lot of lawyers under you?

340
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Well, I\'ll put it this way.

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There are over 10,000 lawyers in the Department of Defense.

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And finally, there was Roberto Gonzales,

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George Bush\'s legal counsel, who played a key role

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in the authorization of torture.

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Do you think that other world leaders

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would have authority to authorize the torture

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of US citizens if they deemed it necessary

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for their national security?

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Senator, I don\'t know what laws

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other world leaders would be bound by.

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I\'m not in a position to answer that question.

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Gonzales, Addington, Haynes, and Yoo.

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The four legal advisors met regularly in the office

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of John Yoo, who was in a key position at the OLC.

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He was responsible for drafting the legal advice

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provided by the Justice Department

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whenever the White House asked a question.

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These opinions, as they are called in bureaucratic lingo,

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are as powerful as legislation

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and provide legal protection for the White House.

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The secret memoranda were declassified

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after the Abu Ghraib scandal.

363
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That they were looking at the law and saying,

364
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how can we twist this in some way

365
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to let the Bush Administration get away

366
00:18:13.600 --> 00:18:16.670 line:15%
with things that are utterly illegal and indefensible?

367
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And John Yoo at great length wrote memos

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really with the guidance of Adington

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and Alberto Gonzales and a handful of other lawyers

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that try to justify the unjustifiable,

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tried to make legal things that were clearly illegal.

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(ominous music)

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The first secret memorandum

374
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was drafted by John Yoo on January 9th 2002,

375
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he wrote that the Geneva Conventions do

376
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not protect members of Al Qaeda or the Taliban militia,

377
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because they have clearly demonstrated

378
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they will not follow

379
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these basic requirements of lawful warfare.

380
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They refuse to wear uniforms and hijack civilian airliners,

381
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therefore he concluded,

382
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this precludes application of common article 3

383
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of the Geneva Conventions.

384
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A rough draft of this first memorandum

385
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was sent to the state department for approval.

386
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Do you remember

387
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Colin Powell\'s reaction to the draft?

388
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He wanted to apply the Geneva Conventions

389
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to the Al Qaeda and the Taliban.

390
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He thought that since World War II

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we had always applied them

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even to people who were not entitled to their benefits

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and that this was in the interests

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of the United States Generally,

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that it was good protection for our forces,

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and that we knew how to do it,

397
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because everybody in the military was trained

398
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to that effect.

399
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Our first witness is Dean John Hutson,

400
00:19:50.890 --> 00:19:54.210 line:15%
Dean and president of the Franklin Pierce Law Center

401
00:19:54.210 --> 00:19:56.793 line:15%
in Concord, New Hampshire,

402
00:19:58.010 --> 00:20:02.689
Dean Hutson has a record as a rear admiral

403
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and the floor is yours.

404
00:20:05.350 --> 00:20:07.180
Thank you Mr. Chairman,

405
00:20:07.180 --> 00:20:09.010
the Geneva Conventions

406
00:20:09.010 --> 00:20:14.010
have protected American troops from harm for many years,

407
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it\'s our troops that benefit.

408
00:20:17.490 --> 00:20:19.410 line:15%
The original US proponents of the convention

409
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saw them as a way to protect US troops from the enemy,

410
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not the enemy from US troops.

411
00:20:26.460 --> 00:20:28.470 line:15%
And if we start picking and choosing,

412
00:20:28.470 --> 00:20:30.100 line:15%
it applies to this guy,

413
00:20:30.100 --> 00:20:31.360 line:15%
but it doesn\'t apply to this guy,

414
00:20:31.360 --> 00:20:32.400 line:15%
and it applies in this country

415
00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:34.410 line:15%
but it doesn\'t apply in this country,

416
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then suddenly American troops are in peril,

417
00:20:36.260 --> 00:20:37.970
because if we have the capability

418
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of making those kinds of fine distinctions,

419
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then every two bit dictator in the world

420
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has the same opportunity

421
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to make the same kinds of distinctions

422
00:20:49.090 --> 00:20:51.913
and that can end up hurting US troops.

423
00:20:52.794 --> 00:20:54.579
That was Colin Powell\'s conception as well

424
00:20:54.579 --> 00:20:55.880
what you are--

425
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He\'s a very smart guy, he and I agree.

426
00:20:59.404 --> 00:21:02.404
(suspenseful music)

427
00:21:09.930 --> 00:21:10.763
While Yoo\'s memorandum

428
00:21:10.763 --> 00:21:13.220
was raising hackles at the State Department,

429
00:21:13.220 --> 00:21:16.670
Donald Rumsfeld was cultivating public opinion,

430
00:21:16.670 --> 00:21:20.030
he staged a visit to the detention camp at Guantanamo

431
00:21:20.030 --> 00:21:23.143
where the first prisoners had arrived 11 days earlier.

432
00:21:25.760 --> 00:21:28.910
They were the subjects of the OLC memo.

433
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As Rumsfeld knew that repealing the Geneva Conventions

434
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would cause an outcry,

435
00:21:33.550 --> 00:21:36.152
his strategy was to speak in half-truth

436
00:21:36.152 --> 00:21:39.203
to chip away at the taboo gradually.

437
00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:42.083 line:15%
Al Qaeda is not a country,

438
00:21:42.083 --> 00:21:44.120 line:15%
they did not behave as an army,

439
00:21:44.120 --> 00:21:45.570 line:15%
they did not wear uniforms,

440
00:21:45.570 --> 00:21:46.920 line:15%
they did not have insignias,

441
00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:49.223 line:15%
they did not carry their weapons openly,

442
00:21:50.130 --> 00:21:51.840
they are a terrorist network

443
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and it would be a total misunderstanding

444
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of the Geneva Convention

445
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if one considered Al Qaeda, a terrorist network

446
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to be an army.

447
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One of the consequences of not being a POW however

448
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is not, emphatically not that you can be treated inhumanely.

449
00:22:15.138 --> 00:22:17.950
Just because they are not POWs

450
00:22:17.950 --> 00:22:19.913
doesn\'t mean that you can torture them.

451
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And the Geneva Conventions are quite clear about that.

452
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To justify torture was indeed

453
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the goal of the bureaucratic maneuver.

454
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The proof lies in a memorandum

455
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sent to President Bush by Alberto Gonzales

456
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on January 25th 2002.

457
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Citing John Yoo\'s briefs,

458
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he wrote this new paradigm

459
00:22:40.570 --> 00:22:43.560 line:15%
renders obsolete Geneva\'s strict limitations

460
00:22:43.560 --> 00:22:46.250 line:15%
on the questioning of enemy prisoners.

461
00:22:46.250 --> 00:22:47.630 line:15%
One sentence in particular

462
00:22:47.630 --> 00:22:49.920 line:15%
later attracted much media attention.

463
00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:52.784 line:15%
A determination that the Geneva Conventions do not apply

464
00:22:52.784 --> 00:22:54.780 line:15%
substantially reduces the threat

465
00:22:54.780 --> 00:22:58.193 line:15%
of domestic criminal prosecution under the War Crimes Act.

466
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Maybe we should have been a little more alert

467
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to this and wondered why he was saying that.

468
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From the very beginning of the war on terror

469
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the threat of domestic prosecution

470
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was really a matter of conscience

471
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for the White House and top officials?

472
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Apparently,

473
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that\'s a very early memo in all of this,

474
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so they are thinking along those lines

475
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at the very beginning.

476
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That we may have to employ techniques

477
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that would be considered to be war crimes.

478
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Did they issue all

479
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these memorandums to back them to protect them maybe?

480
00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:50.833 line:15%
I think they viewed it as a kind of legal insurance.

481
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I think they knew that they were on new ground,

482
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and they wanted to have some sort of protection.

483
00:24:00.700 --> 00:24:02.990 line:15%
Ultimately it was the president

484
00:24:02.990 --> 00:24:05.610 line:15%
of the United States himself who made this decision.

485
00:24:05.610 --> 00:24:09.610
The key document came on February 7th 2002,

486
00:24:09.610 --> 00:24:13.810
and that remains really the foundation

487
00:24:13.810 --> 00:24:15.500
of much of our detention

488
00:24:15.500 --> 00:24:18.185
and interrogation policy going forward.

489
00:24:18.185 --> 00:24:20.460
(upbeat music)

490
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In this directive Bush

491
00:24:22.150 --> 00:24:24.190
was continually covering himself,

492
00:24:24.190 --> 00:24:26.170 line:15%
affirming that his decisions were based on

493
00:24:26.170 --> 00:24:28.973 line:15%
the legal conclusion of the Department of Justice.

494
00:24:30.380 --> 00:24:33.470 line:15%
A new term he introduced would permit all sorts of abuse,

495
00:24:33.470 --> 00:24:35.433
that of unlawful combatants.

496
00:24:36.330 --> 00:24:39.130
To coax reluctant followers like Colin Powell,

497
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Bush\'s cronies added a sentence

498
00:24:41.130 --> 00:24:43.680
with a calculated dose of ambiguity.

499
00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:45.540 line:15%
The United States Armed Forces

500
00:24:45.540 --> 00:24:48.330 line:15%
shall continue to treat detainees humanely,

501
00:24:48.330 --> 00:24:50.830 line:15%
and to the extent appropriate and consistent

502
00:24:50.830 --> 00:24:52.630 line:15%
with military necessity in

503
00:24:52.630 --> 00:24:55.630 line:15%
a manner consistent with the principles of Geneva.

504
00:24:55.630 --> 00:24:58.460
When the memo came out on seventh February

505
00:24:58.460 --> 00:25:00.453 line:15%
and we all had a chance to read it,

506
00:25:02.269 --> 00:25:05.210 line:15%
I thought, I think Secretary Powell thought too,

507
00:25:05.210 --> 00:25:07.740 line:15%
I think Deputy Secretary Armitage and Will Taft

508
00:25:07.740 --> 00:25:10.530
and others thought that this was a good compromise.

509
00:25:10.530 --> 00:25:12.370
It said consistent with military necessity,

510
00:25:12.370 --> 00:25:14.139
which to a military man like me means

511
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that if I have to do something to a suspected terrorist

512
00:25:18.690 --> 00:25:21.450
in order to save my buddies lives I can do it

513
00:25:21.450 --> 00:25:23.980
and I probably won\'t be prosecuted.

514
00:25:23.980 --> 00:25:27.050
It doesn\'t mean that I can for example in Boghram

515
00:25:27.050 --> 00:25:31.270
suspend someone from a meat hook in hypothermic temperatures

516
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for 50 or so days until he dies.

517
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It doesn\'t mean that.

518
00:25:35.172 --> 00:25:37.755
(upbeat music)

519
00:25:39.660 --> 00:25:41.500
In other words Colin Powell

520
00:25:41.500 --> 00:25:43.710
and the State Department had been betrayed,

521
00:25:43.710 --> 00:25:46.840
or lulled to sleep by Rumsfeld\'s promises,

522
00:25:46.840 --> 00:25:49.040
the day after the directive was published

523
00:25:49.040 --> 00:25:50.880
Rumsfeld stated that the decision

524
00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:53.050
not to apply the Geneva Conventions

525
00:25:53.050 --> 00:25:55.680
would have no effect on the prisoners fate.

526
00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:57.963
Double talk, shadow and light.

527
00:25:59.380 --> 00:26:01.560
What will be the impact of these decisions

528
00:26:01.560 --> 00:26:05.650
on circumstances of the Taliban and Al Qaeda detainees,

529
00:26:05.650 --> 00:26:08.140
and the answer in a word is none.

530
00:26:08.140 --> 00:26:11.830
They will continue to receive three appropriate meals a day,

531
00:26:11.830 --> 00:26:15.850
medical care, clothing, showers,

532
00:26:15.850 --> 00:26:20.850
visits from chaplains, Muslim chaplains as appropriate,

533
00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:23.850
and the opportunity to worship freely.

534
00:26:23.850 --> 00:26:28.850
It turned out that later we weren\'t participating

535
00:26:29.866 --> 00:26:31.961
in any of the discussions

536
00:26:31.961 --> 00:26:34.800
as to what would actually be done

537
00:26:34.800 --> 00:26:38.560
and what was lawful.

538
00:26:38.560 --> 00:26:40.550
And a number of opinions were written

539
00:26:40.550 --> 00:26:43.210
which were not shared with us.

540
00:26:43.210 --> 00:26:47.633 line:15%
Donald Rumsfeld had no trust,

541
00:26:47.633 --> 00:26:50.400 line:15%
no confidence in, no faith in,

542
00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:53.490
no desire to work with the State Department.

543
00:26:53.490 --> 00:26:56.655
And I think frankly was very jealous of Colin Powell

544
00:26:56.655 --> 00:27:00.433
and his celebrity status, as was Dick Cheney.

545
00:27:01.770 --> 00:27:02.970
Would you say that the State Department

546
00:27:02.970 --> 00:27:05.770
was put aside in this?

547
00:27:05.770 --> 00:27:06.603
Yes,

548
00:27:08.775 --> 00:27:12.537
we were not included in the discussions

549
00:27:12.537 --> 00:27:16.233
that were going on after February.

550
00:27:17.407 --> 00:27:19.940
(ominous music)

551
00:27:19.940 --> 00:27:21.400
In the field the gloves

552
00:27:21.400 --> 00:27:24.000
came off once and for all,

553
00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:27.630
on March 28th 2002, Abu Zubada,

554
00:27:27.630 --> 00:27:29.530
one of Bin Laden\'s lieutenants,

555
00:27:29.530 --> 00:27:33.490
an Al Qaeda recruiter was arrested in Pakistan,

556
00:27:33.490 --> 00:27:36.420
the CIA flew him to a black site,

557
00:27:36.420 --> 00:27:39.880
a secret prison in Thailand for interrogation.

558
00:27:39.880 --> 00:27:43.950
Zubada was one of the ghost detainees held by the CIA

559
00:27:43.950 --> 00:27:46.810
within the framework of a top-secret program

560
00:27:46.810 --> 00:27:50.100
called extraordinary rendition.

561
00:27:50.100 --> 00:27:51.890
Next hearing on the policy known

562
00:27:51.890 --> 00:27:53.733
as extraordinary rendition.

563
00:27:54.640 --> 00:27:55.860
Well thank you,

564
00:27:55.860 --> 00:27:59.650 line:15%
one initiative that has prompted severe rebuke,

565
00:27:59.650 --> 00:28:01.830 line:15%
particularly from Europe,

566
00:28:01.830 --> 00:28:04.184 line:15%
is the Bush administration\'s practice

567
00:28:04.184 --> 00:28:07.610
of so called extraordinary renditions.

568
00:28:07.610 --> 00:28:11.090
For those of you that are unfamiliar with this term,

569
00:28:11.090 --> 00:28:15.800
I\'m referring to the practice by US government officials

570
00:28:15.800 --> 00:28:19.970
of seizing individuals suspected of links to Al Qaeda

571
00:28:19.970 --> 00:28:22.520
and other terrorist organizations

572
00:28:22.520 --> 00:28:25.910
and transferring them to 3rd countries

573
00:28:25.910 --> 00:28:27.750
such as Syria or Egypt

574
00:28:28.670 --> 00:28:33.383
where they have reportedly faced cruel treatment or torture.

575
00:28:34.630 --> 00:28:36.440
Some news reports have called

576
00:28:36.440 --> 00:28:39.163
this our torture by proxy program.

577
00:28:40.730 --> 00:28:43.453
Doctor Scheuer, am I pronouncing your name right?

578
00:28:45.640 --> 00:28:46.473
Scheuer.

579
00:28:46.473 --> 00:28:47.570
Scheuer.

580
00:28:47.570 --> 00:28:51.890
Has served in the CIA from 1982 to 2004,

581
00:28:53.040 --> 00:28:56.320
19 of those years handling covert action.

582
00:28:56.320 --> 00:28:57.490
Doctor Scheuer?

583
00:28:57.490 --> 00:28:58.800
Mr. Chairman,

584
00:28:58.800 --> 00:29:00.300 line:15%
the CIA\'s rendition program

585
00:29:00.300 --> 00:29:02.570 line:15%
began in late summer 1995,

586
00:29:02.570 --> 00:29:04.790 line:15%
I authored it and then ran and managed it

587
00:29:04.790 --> 00:29:06.210 line:15%
against Al Qaeda leaders

588
00:29:06.210 --> 00:29:09.220
and other Sunni Islamist\'s from August 1995

589
00:29:09.220 --> 00:29:11.790
until June 1999.

590
00:29:11.790 --> 00:29:15.870
CIA warned the president and his national security council

591
00:29:15.870 --> 00:29:17.220
that the US State Department

592
00:29:17.220 --> 00:29:19.090
had and would identify the countries

593
00:29:19.090 --> 00:29:22.030
to which the captured fighters would be delivered

594
00:29:22.030 --> 00:29:24.010
as human rights abusers.

595
00:29:24.010 --> 00:29:25.980
A lot of people think the rendition program

596
00:29:25.980 --> 00:29:29.190 line:15%
began under Mr. Bush in 2001,

597
00:29:29.190 --> 00:29:33.870 line:15%
well it began in August 1995 under Mr. Clinton,

598
00:29:33.870 --> 00:29:36.840
and under Mr. Clinton everyone who was captured

599
00:29:36.840 --> 00:29:38.820
was taken to a third country,

600
00:29:38.820 --> 00:29:42.470
not held by any American people at all.

601
00:29:42.470 --> 00:29:44.718
After 9/11, and under President Bush

602
00:29:44.718 --> 00:29:46.720
rendered Al Qaeda operatives

603
00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:50.130
have been most often kept in US custody,

604
00:29:50.130 --> 00:29:53.380
the goals of the program remain the same,

605
00:29:53.380 --> 00:29:57.140
although Mr. Bush\'s national security team

606
00:29:57.140 --> 00:29:58.980
wanted to use US officers

607
00:29:58.980 --> 00:30:02.680
to interrogate captured Al Qaeda fighters.

608
00:30:02.680 --> 00:30:06.940
When you seized individuals in Europe or elsewhere

609
00:30:06.940 --> 00:30:10.820
outside of Afghanistan or Iraq,

610
00:30:10.820 --> 00:30:15.480
and either held them or transferred them to another country.

611
00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:18.350
Did you understand that there was legal authority

612
00:30:18.350 --> 00:30:21.704
permitting such seizures and captures?

613
00:30:21.704 --> 00:30:22.537
Sir, a half-assed bureaucrat like me

614
00:30:22.537 --> 00:30:25.136
is not gonna take any prisoner anywhere in this world

615
00:30:25.136 --> 00:30:28.580
without the authority of the executive branch.

616
00:30:28.580 --> 00:30:31.810
I can\'t go to the bathroom at CIA without a lawyer.

617
00:30:31.810 --> 00:30:34.230
Every operation in the rendition program

618
00:30:34.230 --> 00:30:37.927
was reviewed by lawyers representing the CIA,

619
00:30:37.927 --> 00:30:40.830
the Department of Justice, the White House.

620
00:30:40.830 --> 00:30:44.270
There is no operation until the lawyers say it\'s legal,

621
00:30:44.270 --> 00:30:45.853
there\'s no interrogation method used

622
00:30:45.853 --> 00:30:48.880
until the lawyers approve it.

623
00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:49.713
The problems began

624
00:30:49.713 --> 00:30:53.210
when they detained Mr. Zubada,

625
00:30:53.210 --> 00:30:56.540
and according to you the CIA agency

626
00:30:56.540 --> 00:30:58.530
asked for official guidance.

627
00:30:58.530 --> 00:31:00.168
Absolutely.

628
00:31:00.168 --> 00:31:03.168
(suspenseful music)

629
00:31:04.210 --> 00:31:08.037
Ladies and gentlemen, the president of the United States.

630
00:31:08.037 --> 00:31:11.037
(audience applauds)

631
00:31:14.760 --> 00:31:17.540
Abu Zubada\'s case was specifically mentioned

632
00:31:17.540 --> 00:31:20.760
by President Bush in September 2006

633
00:31:20.760 --> 00:31:23.960
when after four years of secret imprisonment

634
00:31:23.960 --> 00:31:27.000
his transfer to Guantanamo was announced.

635
00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:29.000
Bush took advantage of the attention

636
00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:31.252
to justify the CIA is interrogation methods

637
00:31:31.252 --> 00:31:33.913
used on the ghost detainee.

638
00:31:35.730 --> 00:31:37.950
We knew that Zubada had more information

639
00:31:37.950 --> 00:31:39.573
that could save innocent lives.

640
00:31:41.090 --> 00:31:42.240
But he stopped talking.

641
00:31:44.670 --> 00:31:46.460
As his questioning proceeded

642
00:31:47.490 --> 00:31:49.810
it became clear that he had received training

643
00:31:49.810 --> 00:31:51.813
on how to resist interrogation.

644
00:31:53.780 --> 00:31:56.563
And so the CIA used an alternative set of procedures.

645
00:32:02.950 --> 00:32:05.150
I cannot describe the specific methods used,

646
00:32:07.341 --> 00:32:08.880
I think you understand why,

647
00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:10.330
if I did it would help the terrorist

648
00:32:10.330 --> 00:32:11.930
learn how to resist questioning,

649
00:32:12.920 --> 00:32:14.350
and to keep information from us

650
00:32:14.350 --> 00:32:17.343
that we need to prevent new attacks on our country.

651
00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:23.100
But I can say the procedures were tough and they were safe

652
00:32:23.100 --> 00:32:25.253
and lawful and necessary.

653
00:32:28.380 --> 00:32:30.500
We now know that Abu Zubada

654
00:32:30.500 --> 00:32:33.520
underwent the torture known as waterboarding

655
00:32:33.520 --> 00:32:36.160
and that he was the first in a list of victims

656
00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:38.721
including some names which have yet to be revealed.

657
00:32:38.721 --> 00:32:41.550
(man choking)

658
00:32:41.550 --> 00:32:42.895
Concerning waterboarding,

659
00:32:42.895 --> 00:32:45.580 line:15%
do you consider it\'s torture or not?

660
00:32:45.580 --> 00:32:46.740 line:15%
I certainly don\'t,

661
00:32:46.740 --> 00:32:48.610 line:15%
no, it was authorized by the president,

662
00:32:48.610 --> 00:32:50.580 line:15%
it was approved by the US legal community,

663
00:32:50.580 --> 00:32:52.530 line:15%
if it was torture it would be against

664
00:32:52.530 --> 00:32:54.280
the law and we wouldn\'t be doing it.

665
00:32:54.280 --> 00:32:55.510 line:15%
I mean this is nonsense

666
00:32:55.510 --> 00:32:58.670 line:15%
waterboarding has been torture since the Spanish Inquisition

667
00:32:58.670 --> 00:33:00.263 line:15%
or before, it\'s torture,

668
00:33:01.629 --> 00:33:03.622
again these lawyers picking at that

669
00:33:03.622 --> 00:33:05.743
appalls me as a citizen and a soldier.

670
00:33:05.743 --> 00:33:07.863
It\'s torture, clearly it\'s torture.

671
00:33:09.380 --> 00:33:12.338
Does waterboarding constitute torture?

672
00:33:12.338 --> 00:33:14.750
Before September 11th such a question

673
00:33:14.750 --> 00:33:17.333
would have been inconceivable in the United States,

674
00:33:18.423 --> 00:33:19.930
yet it was openly debated

675
00:33:19.930 --> 00:33:20.930
when Michael Mukasey

676
00:33:21.970 --> 00:33:24.453
was appointed Attorney General in late 2007.

677
00:33:26.460 --> 00:33:28.283 line:15%
Is waterboarding constitutional?

678
00:33:30.990 --> 00:33:33.000 line:15%
I don\'t know what\'s involved in the technique,

679
00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:36.250 line:15%
if waterboarding is torture,

680
00:33:36.250 --> 00:33:38.433 line:15%
torture is not constitutional.

681
00:33:39.740 --> 00:33:43.793
If it\'s torture that\'s a massive hedge,

682
00:33:44.910 --> 00:33:46.000
it either is or it isn\'t,

683
00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:47.963
do you have an opinion on whether waterboarding,

684
00:33:47.963 --> 00:33:51.360
which is the practice of putting somebody

685
00:33:51.360 --> 00:33:54.070
in a reclining position strapping them down,

686
00:33:54.070 --> 00:33:56.110
putting a cloth over their face,

687
00:33:56.110 --> 00:33:57.780
and pouring water over the cloth

688
00:33:57.780 --> 00:34:00.230
to simulate the feeling of drowning,

689
00:34:00.230 --> 00:34:01.653
is that constitutional?

690
00:34:05.490 --> 00:34:08.833
If it amounts to torture it is not constitutional.

691
00:34:10.808 --> 00:34:11.710
I\'m very disappointed in that answer,

692
00:34:11.710 --> 00:34:13.610
I think it is purely semantic.

693
00:34:13.610 --> 00:34:14.443
Sorry.

694
00:34:16.300 --> 00:34:18.070 line:15%
And what the agency did after 9/11

695
00:34:18.070 --> 00:34:20.040 line:15%
was to make sure that we weren\'t operating

696
00:34:20.040 --> 00:34:24.360 line:15%
with any kind of oral okay

697
00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:26.520
where somebody could say I never said that.

698
00:34:26.520 --> 00:34:29.220
What the agency insisted for the protection

699
00:34:29.220 --> 00:34:32.000
of its officers is on paper,

700
00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:33.390
what do you want us to do,

701
00:34:33.390 --> 00:34:34.980
what are we authorized to do,

702
00:34:34.980 --> 00:34:36.530
what are we not authorized to do.

703
00:34:36.530 --> 00:34:40.170
Yes, the CIA certainly did demand that.

704
00:34:40.170 --> 00:34:42.720
It was the protection for your agents?

705
00:34:42.720 --> 00:34:44.410
For our officers, yes.

706
00:34:44.410 --> 00:34:48.190
It was to avoid what always happens with politicians,

707
00:34:48.190 --> 00:34:50.190
they blame someone else.

708
00:34:50.190 --> 00:34:51.862
But once their name is on the line,

709
00:34:51.862 --> 00:34:54.493
everybody is in the same boat.

710
00:34:55.560 --> 00:34:58.180
The paper Michael Scheuer refers to

711
00:34:58.180 --> 00:35:03.180
is a secret OLC memorandum dated August 1st, 2002,

712
00:35:03.180 --> 00:35:07.200
and officially signed by Jay Bibie, John Yoo\'s boss.

713
00:35:07.200 --> 00:35:09.350
Nicknamed the torture memo,

714
00:35:09.350 --> 00:35:11.620
this text endeavors to find loopholes

715
00:35:11.620 --> 00:35:13.590
on the absolute ban on torture

716
00:35:13.590 --> 00:35:15.670
enshrined in the universal declaration

717
00:35:15.670 --> 00:35:18.360
of human rights in 1948,

718
00:35:18.360 --> 00:35:20.734
and then by the Convention Against torture

719
00:35:20.734 --> 00:35:23.980
approved by the United Nations in 1984,

720
00:35:23.980 --> 00:35:27.920
and ratified by the United States 10 years later.

721
00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:30.730
Who actually wrote the OLC memo?

722
00:35:30.730 --> 00:35:32.360 line:15%
It\'s a mystery.

723
00:35:32.360 --> 00:35:35.330 line:15%
Various sources claim that it was John Yoo,

724
00:35:35.330 --> 00:35:37.690
assisted by David Addington.

725
00:35:37.690 --> 00:35:39.890
What is certain is that the torture memo

726
00:35:39.890 --> 00:35:42.410
was addressed to Alberto Gonzales,

727
00:35:42.410 --> 00:35:44.283
and therefore the White House.

728
00:35:45.810 --> 00:35:48.930 line:15%
As I understand there is the report in the Washington Post

729
00:35:48.930 --> 00:35:51.080 line:15%
that the CIA asked you for a legal opinion

730
00:35:51.080 --> 00:35:53.130 line:15%
about how much pain and suffering

731
00:35:53.130 --> 00:35:55.480
an intelligence officer could inflict on a detainee

732
00:35:55.480 --> 00:35:59.080
without violating the 94 anti-torture statute,

733
00:35:59.080 --> 00:36:01.700
which my article states you chaired various meetings

734
00:36:01.700 --> 00:36:04.335
at which various interrogation techniques were discussed.

735
00:36:04.335 --> 00:36:08.310
These techniques included the threat of live burial

736
00:36:08.310 --> 00:36:09.403
and waterboarding,

737
00:36:10.440 --> 00:36:12.633
whereby, is it the CIA asked you?

738
00:36:14.041 --> 00:36:16.610 line:15%
I don\'t recall specifically

739
00:36:16.610 --> 00:36:19.150 line:15%
whether or not I requested this memo,

740
00:36:19.150 --> 00:36:22.310 line:15%
or whether or not the initial request came from the CIA

741
00:36:22.310 --> 00:36:24.260
or the CIA came to me,

742
00:36:24.260 --> 00:36:25.840
I don\'t recall Senator.

743
00:36:25.840 --> 00:36:28.230
You have no information, no memoranda

744
00:36:28.230 --> 00:36:31.524
that would indicate on an issue of this kind of importance

745
00:36:31.524 --> 00:36:32.993
and consequence?

746
00:36:34.160 --> 00:36:35.880
I\'m sure we had discussions about it,

747
00:36:35.880 --> 00:36:37.905
and ultimately it was accepted,

748
00:36:37.905 --> 00:36:42.270
because that was the ultimate decision and position

749
00:36:42.270 --> 00:36:43.833
of the office of legal counsel.

750
00:36:45.820 --> 00:36:48.340
The trick of the OLC memo consisted

751
00:36:48.340 --> 00:36:50.250
in redefining torture,

752
00:36:50.250 --> 00:36:53.590
by making it so extreme that there were few actions

753
00:36:53.590 --> 00:36:56.280
to which the definition could apply.

754
00:36:56.280 --> 00:36:58.066
Physical pain amounting to torture

755
00:36:58.066 --> 00:37:02.210
must be equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying

756
00:37:02.210 --> 00:37:05.630
serious physical injury such as organ failure,

757
00:37:05.630 --> 00:37:08.533
impairment of bodily function or even death.

758
00:37:11.560 --> 00:37:15.318
We now turn to Dean Koh,

759
00:37:15.318 --> 00:37:17.770
the Dean of the Yale law school.

760
00:37:17.770 --> 00:37:20.530 line:15%
And having worked in the office of legal counsel

761
00:37:20.530 --> 00:37:22.280 line:15%
I am very sympathetic with the pressures

762
00:37:22.280 --> 00:37:23.650 line:15%
that people are under

763
00:37:23.650 --> 00:37:25.970 line:15%
in drafting opinions like this.

764
00:37:25.970 --> 00:37:28.330 line:15%
Nevertheless, in my professional opinion,

765
00:37:28.330 --> 00:37:31.010
as a law professor and a law Dean,

766
00:37:31.010 --> 00:37:33.350
The Bibie memorandum is perhaps the most

767
00:37:33.350 --> 00:37:37.280
clearly legally erroneous opinion I have ever read.

768
00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:39.070 line:15%
What I did was to look to see how

769
00:37:39.070 --> 00:37:41.210 line:15%
the US government had defined the torture

770
00:37:41.210 --> 00:37:43.960 line:15%
committed by Saddam Hussein troops

771
00:37:43.960 --> 00:37:47.210 line:15%
and many of the things that were mentioned there.

772
00:37:47.210 --> 00:37:49.060
Threats of rape,

773
00:37:49.060 --> 00:37:53.730
dripping boiling oil on someone\'s flesh

774
00:37:53.730 --> 00:37:55.610
didn\'t meet their standard of torture,

775
00:37:55.610 --> 00:37:57.130
even though when Saddam Hussein

776
00:37:57.130 --> 00:37:58.693
did it it was clearly torture.

777
00:38:00.209 --> 00:38:01.980 line:15%
The question that I have is that

778
00:38:01.980 --> 00:38:04.100 line:15%
wasn\'t it obvious to you that someone can suffer

779
00:38:04.100 --> 00:38:05.230 line:15%
series physical pain

780
00:38:05.230 --> 00:38:08.020 line:15%
without being in danger of organ failure.

781
00:38:08.020 --> 00:38:11.240
I mean wouldn\'t the removal of fingers for example

782
00:38:11.240 --> 00:38:14.180
fall outside the definition of torture?

783
00:38:14.180 --> 00:38:19.180 line:15%
I don\'t recall reading that analysis

784
00:38:21.440 --> 00:38:26.440 line:15%
to conclude that it would have to be

785
00:38:26.510 --> 00:38:31.000
that kind of pain in order to constitute torture.

786
00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:34.703
Obviously things like cutting off fingers,

787
00:38:35.910 --> 00:38:38.223
to me that sounds like torture.

788
00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:40.790
What are the consequences

789
00:38:40.790 --> 00:38:43.580
of openly defying the international ban

790
00:38:43.580 --> 00:38:45.970
on torture for the US and the rest of the world?

791
00:38:45.970 --> 00:38:48.470 line:15%
Well, if an ordinary government tortures somebody,

792
00:38:48.470 --> 00:38:51.440 line:15%
you say this was a violation of human rights,

793
00:38:51.440 --> 00:38:54.730 line:15%
but the standards, the norms remain intact.

794
00:38:54.730 --> 00:38:57.360 line:15%
But when a superpower like the United States

795
00:38:57.360 --> 00:38:59.480
violates a norm so fundamental

796
00:38:59.480 --> 00:39:01.240
as the prohibition on torture,

797
00:39:01.240 --> 00:39:04.080
it tends to degrade the prohibition itself.

798
00:39:04.080 --> 00:39:06.980
So what you find is that governments around the world

799
00:39:06.980 --> 00:39:08.770
justify their own torture

800
00:39:08.770 --> 00:39:10.470
by reference to what Bush is doing.

801
00:39:10.470 --> 00:39:11.720
I myself encountered this,

802
00:39:11.720 --> 00:39:14.400
I met with the Prime Minister of Egypt

803
00:39:14.400 --> 00:39:16.450
and was complaining to him about the torture

804
00:39:16.450 --> 00:39:17.487
of a number of subjects that

805
00:39:17.487 --> 00:39:19.260
had been picked up in the Sinai,

806
00:39:19.260 --> 00:39:20.800
and without skipping a beat he said,

807
00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:22.200
well, that\'s what Bush does.

808
00:39:23.200 --> 00:39:24.320
Attorney General--

809
00:39:24.320 --> 00:39:25.780
Revealed by the media shortly

810
00:39:25.780 --> 00:39:27.700
after the Abu Ghraib scandal,

811
00:39:27.700 --> 00:39:31.070
the torture memo ranks as the most compromising document

812
00:39:31.070 --> 00:39:33.030
of the Bush administration.

813
00:39:33.030 --> 00:39:36.000
This key evidence could sent its authors to prison

814
00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:38.190
for complicity in war crimes.

815
00:39:38.190 --> 00:39:39.730
That is why John Ashcroft,

816
00:39:39.730 --> 00:39:41.970
Attorney General at the Justice Department

817
00:39:41.970 --> 00:39:43.710
of which the OLC is part

818
00:39:43.710 --> 00:39:46.950
did everything to hide its existence from Congress.

819
00:39:46.950 --> 00:39:47.783
Senator Kennedy.

820
00:39:47.783 --> 00:39:50.600
Thank you and welcome General.

821
00:39:50.600 --> 00:39:54.750 line:15%
In the three memoranda January 9th, 2002

822
00:39:54.750 --> 00:39:56.420 line:15%
signed by John Yoo,

823
00:39:56.420 --> 00:39:59.197 line:15%
the August 2002 Justice Department,

824
00:39:59.197 --> 00:40:04.060
the Bibie memo,

825
00:40:04.060 --> 00:40:07.610
and the March 2000, the inter-agency working group,

826
00:40:07.610 --> 00:40:09.210
those are three memoranda,

827
00:40:09.210 --> 00:40:11.210
will you provide those to the committee?

828
00:40:12.290 --> 00:40:13.630
No I will not.

829
00:40:13.630 --> 00:40:16.046
I am refusing to disclose these memos

830
00:40:16.046 --> 00:40:19.524 line:15%
because I believe it is essential

831
00:40:19.524 --> 00:40:23.150 line:15%
to the operation of the executive branch

832
00:40:23.150 --> 00:40:25.110
that the president has the opportunity

833
00:40:25.110 --> 00:40:28.200
to get information from his Attorney General

834
00:40:28.200 --> 00:40:29.960
that is confidential.

835
00:40:29.960 --> 00:40:33.890 line:15%
Frankly that is what contempt of Congress is all about.

836
00:40:33.890 --> 00:40:36.140 line:15%
You have to give us a specific legal authority

837
00:40:36.140 --> 00:40:38.360 line:15%
which gives you the right to say no,

838
00:40:38.360 --> 00:40:40.100
or the president has to claim privilege

839
00:40:40.100 --> 00:40:41.490
and you have done neither.

840
00:40:41.490 --> 00:40:43.300
I think this committee has a responsibility

841
00:40:43.300 --> 00:40:44.500
to move forward on this.

842
00:40:45.874 --> 00:40:48.053
Are these memos classified?

843
00:40:54.500 --> 00:40:56.530
A sidebar conference on something

844
00:40:56.530 --> 00:40:57.730
the Attorney General has

845
00:40:58.699 --> 00:41:00.579
so authoritatively stated his position?

846
00:41:00.579 --> 00:41:02.430
I tell you, this is me getting advice

847
00:41:02.430 --> 00:41:03.983
which will remain confidential.

848
00:41:08.430 --> 00:41:11.470
Some of these memos may be classified

849
00:41:11.470 --> 00:41:14.150
in some ways for some purposes.

850
00:41:14.150 --> 00:41:15.400
Thank you Senator Schumer.

851
00:41:15.400 --> 00:41:16.710
Mr. Chairman thank you,

852
00:41:16.710 --> 00:41:19.010
and Mr. Attorney General I know this hasn\'t

853
00:41:19.010 --> 00:41:21.210
been an easy day for you,

854
00:41:21.210 --> 00:41:24.720
and we respect you being here.

855
00:41:24.720 --> 00:41:27.140 line:15%
I think there are probably very few people in this room

856
00:41:27.140 --> 00:41:29.233 line:15%
or in America who would say

857
00:41:29.233 --> 00:41:31.350 line:15%
that torture should never ever be used

858
00:41:31.350 --> 00:41:34.253 line:15%
particularly if thousands of lives are at stake.

859
00:41:35.180 --> 00:41:36.340
Take the hypothetical,

860
00:41:36.340 --> 00:41:37.390
if we knew that there was

861
00:41:37.390 --> 00:41:42.100
a nuclear bomb hidden in an American city

862
00:41:42.100 --> 00:41:46.410
and we believed that some kind of torture,

863
00:41:46.410 --> 00:41:48.720
fairly severe maybe would give us

864
00:41:48.720 --> 00:41:52.550
a chance finding that bomb before it went off,

865
00:41:52.550 --> 00:41:55.120
my guess is most Americans and most senators,

866
00:41:55.120 --> 00:41:58.530
maybe all, would say do what you have to do.

867
00:41:58.530 --> 00:42:02.520
The problem is there has to be very careful guidance

868
00:42:02.520 --> 00:42:05.270
and it should be made public.

869
00:42:05.270 --> 00:42:08.283
And most people are reasonable and would understand that.

870
00:42:09.801 --> 00:42:13.218
(man gasping for breath)

871
00:42:14.150 --> 00:42:17.373
It\'s too late, you can stop this.

872
00:42:17.373 --> 00:42:19.530
(\"Asturias\" by Issac Albeniz\")

873
00:42:19.530 --> 00:42:20.840
The argument developed

874
00:42:20.840 --> 00:42:22.290
by the Democratic congressmen

875
00:42:22.290 --> 00:42:24.930
to justify the legalization of torture

876
00:42:24.930 --> 00:42:26.970
on a case-by-case basis

877
00:42:26.970 --> 00:42:29.910
was publicly debated in the United States,

878
00:42:29.910 --> 00:42:32.860
it\'s called the ticking time bomb scenario.

879
00:42:32.860 --> 00:42:35.100
Human Rights First issued a DVD

880
00:42:35.100 --> 00:42:37.080
entitled Primetime Torture,

881
00:42:37.080 --> 00:42:38.410
showing how television tends

882
00:42:38.410 --> 00:42:40.933
to make the public accept such practices.

883
00:42:42.460 --> 00:42:45.600 line:15%
The model of this is a program called 24

884
00:42:45.600 --> 00:42:48.720 line:15%
which has been on the air for seven years.

885
00:42:48.720 --> 00:42:53.650 line:15%
In which the hero who is a security official,

886
00:42:53.650 --> 00:42:56.720
an American official named Jack Bauer

887
00:42:56.720 --> 00:43:01.720
spends literally several minutes every hour it\'s on the air

888
00:43:01.731 --> 00:43:04.870
torturing somebody to get information

889
00:43:04.870 --> 00:43:06.370
about a ticking time bomb.

890
00:43:06.370 --> 00:43:10.193
It\'s the same story every week, every episode.

891
00:43:11.106 --> 00:43:11.939
We are running out of time,

892
00:43:11.939 --> 00:43:14.530
I will tell these men to kill your last son.

893
00:43:15.539 --> 00:43:17.039
Where is the bomb?

894
00:43:18.807 --> 00:43:20.540 line:15%
Preposterous argument,

895
00:43:20.540 --> 00:43:22.930 line:15%
anyone who\'s been in government,

896
00:43:22.930 --> 00:43:25.070 line:15%
even at the state level,

897
00:43:25.070 --> 00:43:27.900 line:15%
but certainly at the national level knows

898
00:43:27.900 --> 00:43:30.620
that there would never be a scenario

899
00:43:30.620 --> 00:43:33.937
where you would have such perfect information

900
00:43:33.937 --> 00:43:37.330
in such a perfectly timed way

901
00:43:37.330 --> 00:43:39.610
That you would be able to create

902
00:43:39.610 --> 00:43:42.990
this Jack Bauer 24 argument,

903
00:43:42.990 --> 00:43:45.970
no way, that only happens in Hollywood.

904
00:43:45.970 --> 00:43:47.360
All of a sudden every time

905
00:43:47.360 --> 00:43:49.190
you open the TV and watch something,

906
00:43:49.190 --> 00:43:50.880
somebody is being tortured.

907
00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:53.240
And that affected peoples mentality,

908
00:43:53.240 --> 00:43:55.352
it contributed to the anxiety,

909
00:43:55.352 --> 00:43:59.120
but it also I think gave the political people

910
00:43:59.120 --> 00:44:02.030
who wanted to promote this agenda

911
00:44:02.030 --> 00:44:05.273
a kind of reinforcement for what they were doing.

912
00:44:09.157 --> 00:44:11.620
When the CIA got the green light from the OLC

913
00:44:11.620 --> 00:44:14.380
in Guantanamo the Pentagon was stepping up pressure

914
00:44:14.380 --> 00:44:16.230
on the Army intelligence services

915
00:44:16.230 --> 00:44:19.510
interrogating the Saudi Mohammed Al Khatami,

916
00:44:19.510 --> 00:44:23.300
suspected of being the 20th terrorist in the 9/11 attacks,

917
00:44:23.300 --> 00:44:25.590
he was arrested in Afghanistan

918
00:44:25.590 --> 00:44:28.853
and transferred to Guantanamo in January 2002.

919
00:44:29.810 --> 00:44:32.740
For six months military intelligence officers

920
00:44:32.740 --> 00:44:36.520
obeyed the instructions in field manual 3452

921
00:44:36.520 --> 00:44:38.883
which prohibits coercive interrogation.

922
00:44:40.470 --> 00:44:42.770
Rumsfeld decided to override it

923
00:44:42.770 --> 00:44:47.040
by misappropriating a secret military program called SERE,

924
00:44:47.040 --> 00:44:50.963
developed to train US special forces to resist torture.

925
00:44:53.920 --> 00:44:55.710
My name is Malcolm Nance,

926
00:44:55.710 --> 00:44:56.560
I am a former member

927
00:44:56.560 --> 00:44:59.033
of the US military intelligence community.

928
00:44:59.980 --> 00:45:02.270 line:15%
While serving my nation I had the honor to be accepted

929
00:45:02.270 --> 00:45:04.770 line:15%
for duty as an instructor at the US Navy

930
00:45:04.770 --> 00:45:07.580 line:15%
Survival Evasion Resistance and Escape School,

931
00:45:07.580 --> 00:45:08.780
SERE School.

932
00:45:08.780 --> 00:45:11.760 line:15%
The SERE program was created in the late 1950s

933
00:45:11.760 --> 00:45:13.591 line:15%
after the Korean War.

934
00:45:13.591 --> 00:45:16.650 line:15%
The studies that had been done on American prisoners of war

935
00:45:16.650 --> 00:45:18.320
found that in World War II,

936
00:45:18.320 --> 00:45:20.900
and especially in Korea,

937
00:45:20.900 --> 00:45:24.310
prisoners of war were dying in very large numbers,

938
00:45:24.310 --> 00:45:25.900
and they determined that in Korea

939
00:45:25.900 --> 00:45:27.750
it was from the techniques.

940
00:45:27.750 --> 00:45:29.660
And they said what we want to do

941
00:45:29.660 --> 00:45:31.640
is create a program which will allow

942
00:45:31.640 --> 00:45:34.500
US service members to have some tools

943
00:45:34.500 --> 00:45:36.860
in order to resist their captivity.

944
00:45:36.860 --> 00:45:41.570
We train our personnel in order to survive

945
00:45:41.570 --> 00:45:43.890
in the worst kind of environment,

946
00:45:43.890 --> 00:45:47.830
an enemy that has a complete disregard for human rights,

947
00:45:47.830 --> 00:45:51.890
complete disregard for the Geneva Conventions.

948
00:45:51.890 --> 00:45:54.160
The most vigorous program I went through

949
00:45:54.160 --> 00:45:56.960 line:15%
was the United States Army Ranger program,

950
00:45:56.960 --> 00:46:01.960 line:15%
where we parachuted into a jungle environment at night

951
00:46:03.598 --> 00:46:06.240
and as I was wrapping my Parachute up

952
00:46:06.240 --> 00:46:08.490
and putting it back in my bag I was captured.

953
00:46:09.350 --> 00:46:11.350
I was confined in an area

954
00:46:11.350 --> 00:46:14.310
where I could not move out of a fetal position

955
00:46:14.310 --> 00:46:16.330
for a day and a night,

956
00:46:16.330 --> 00:46:19.370
that\'s a long time, and I guarantee you it got to me

957
00:46:19.370 --> 00:46:21.507
being in that position for a day.

958
00:46:21.507 --> 00:46:23.404
I couldn\'t move, I couldn\'t even turn my head up.

959
00:46:23.404 --> 00:46:26.110
Then you are subjected to interrogation,

960
00:46:26.110 --> 00:46:28.080
you\'re put down in a little small chair

961
00:46:28.080 --> 00:46:31.110
with a big bright light like that shining in your face,

962
00:46:31.110 --> 00:46:33.563
and you are naked from the waist up,

963
00:46:35.270 --> 00:46:37.270
and every now and then people

964
00:46:37.270 --> 00:46:38.640
get a little aggressive with you.

965
00:46:38.640 --> 00:46:41.730
Like I said, one of the NCOs there

966
00:46:41.730 --> 00:46:44.063
smacked me across the face and broke my tooth.

967
00:46:45.300 --> 00:46:49.330 line:15%
The students are briefed that torture is a component

968
00:46:49.330 --> 00:46:53.200 line:15%
of military or civilian intelligence organizations

969
00:46:54.201 --> 00:46:58.590
who have no real respectful way of extracting information.

970
00:46:58.590 --> 00:47:02.920
We teach torture as total failure on the part of an enemy,

971
00:47:02.920 --> 00:47:04.810
and what we do is we introduce them

972
00:47:04.810 --> 00:47:06.800
to the techniques that are used around the world,

973
00:47:06.800 --> 00:47:08.870
whether it be drowning tortures

974
00:47:08.870 --> 00:47:12.830
or whether it be beatings, stress positions,

975
00:47:12.830 --> 00:47:17.030
sleep deprivation, pulling out of nails or electric shocks.

976
00:47:17.030 --> 00:47:20.010
Is advised and counseled by psychiatrists,

977
00:47:20.010 --> 00:47:21.910
physicians and so forth,

978
00:47:21.910 --> 00:47:23.570
for one thing they want to make sure

979
00:47:23.570 --> 00:47:25.260
that a school that\'s as aggressive

980
00:47:25.260 --> 00:47:29.540
as the Ranger School for example doesn\'t hurt someone.

981
00:47:29.540 --> 00:47:32.270
The SERE psychologists role is critically important

982
00:47:32.270 --> 00:47:34.520
to make sure that the students are in good mental health

983
00:47:34.520 --> 00:47:36.270
and understand how to stay

984
00:47:36.270 --> 00:47:38.330
in good mental health in captivity.

985
00:47:38.330 --> 00:47:39.733
If someone had said to me,

986
00:47:39.733 --> 00:47:42.890
okay, now we\'re gonna torture people,

987
00:47:42.890 --> 00:47:45.470
the same way that our torturer have tortured us.

988
00:47:45.470 --> 00:47:49.250
I would have one, pointed out that it\'s a crime,

989
00:47:49.250 --> 00:47:51.860
two, pointed out that it\'s worthless,

990
00:47:51.860 --> 00:47:53.150
and three, pointed out that

991
00:47:53.150 --> 00:47:55.593
it\'s the most un-American thing that you can do.

992
00:47:56.830 --> 00:47:58.950
Revelations of the existence of the SERE

993
00:47:58.950 --> 00:48:02.186
program and its misappropriation to torture prisoners

994
00:48:02.186 --> 00:48:04.800
provoked outrage in the US.

995
00:48:04.800 --> 00:48:06.873
Yet during the hearings only those

996
00:48:06.873 --> 00:48:10.660
who played secondary roles were summoned to testify,

997
00:48:10.660 --> 00:48:13.223
not Donald Rumsfeld their boss.

998
00:48:14.117 --> 00:48:15.953 line:15%
Today\'s hearing will explore how it came about

999
00:48:15.953 --> 00:48:18.140 line:15%
that the techniques

1000
00:48:18.140 --> 00:48:21.630
called SERE resistance training techniques

1001
00:48:21.630 --> 00:48:24.360
were turned on their head,

1002
00:48:24.360 --> 00:48:27.210
and sanctioned by the Department of Defense officials

1003
00:48:27.210 --> 00:48:30.860
for use offensively against detainees.

1004
00:48:30.860 --> 00:48:35.470
Let me start with you first Mr. Schiffrin.

1005
00:48:35.470 --> 00:48:40.470
When you were the deputy General counsel for intelligence

1006
00:48:41.802 --> 00:48:43.990
for the Department of Defense

1007
00:48:43.990 --> 00:48:45.600
I understand you had some discussions

1008
00:48:45.600 --> 00:48:47.140
with the Department of Defense General

1009
00:48:47.140 --> 00:48:49.540
counsel Jim Haynes about interrogations

1010
00:48:49.540 --> 00:48:53.783
in the spring or summer of 2002, is that correct?

1011
00:48:55.705 --> 00:48:57.350 line:15%
I had some discussions with Jim Haynes

1012
00:48:57.350 --> 00:49:00.290 line:15%
about where expertise might lie

1013
00:49:00.290 --> 00:49:03.743 line:15%
within the Department of Defense on interrogation.

1014
00:49:05.010 --> 00:49:06.500
The sense that I had and others

1015
00:49:06.500 --> 00:49:08.260
was that the Department of Defense

1016
00:49:08.260 --> 00:49:12.000
had been out of this business for a long long time,

1017
00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:14.210
at least since the Vietnam War.

1018
00:49:14.210 --> 00:49:17.220
Was this effort because there was some frustration

1019
00:49:17.220 --> 00:49:19.850
with the lack of intelligence that was coming up?

1020
00:49:19.850 --> 00:49:20.930
That\'s the sense I got,

1021
00:49:20.930 --> 00:49:22.190
not just from that discussion

1022
00:49:22.190 --> 00:49:24.950
but in previous meetings that I was at,

1023
00:49:24.950 --> 00:49:27.397
that I attended Generally of our office

1024
00:49:27.397 --> 00:49:29.900
where there was discussion about progress

1025
00:49:29.900 --> 00:49:34.320
or lack of progress and exploitation of detainees.

1026
00:49:34.320 --> 00:49:37.250
Mr. Haynes, did you ask Mr. Schiffrin

1027
00:49:37.250 --> 00:49:39.763
to obtain information on SERE techniques?

1028
00:49:43.470 --> 00:49:44.433
Mr. Chairman,

1029
00:49:45.340 --> 00:49:48.800 line:15%
the summer of 2002 was six years ago

1030
00:49:48.800 --> 00:49:50.363 line:15%
and my memory is not perfect,

1031
00:49:51.740 --> 00:49:55.000 line:15%
my memory is not perfect even in more recent times,

1032
00:49:55.000 --> 00:49:58.270
but six years ago is surely the case.

1033
00:49:58.270 --> 00:50:00.410
What I remember in the summer of 2002

1034
00:50:01.430 --> 00:50:06.430
is a government wide concern

1035
00:50:06.640 --> 00:50:10.310
about the possibility of another terrorist attack

1036
00:50:10.310 --> 00:50:13.063
as the anniversary of 9/11 approached.

1037
00:50:13.910 --> 00:50:16.700
I also remember a widespread belief

1038
00:50:16.700 --> 00:50:21.230
that the people that the United States had captured

1039
00:50:21.230 --> 00:50:24.121
in the war on terror were not producing

1040
00:50:24.121 --> 00:50:28.810
as much information as we believed they had.

1041
00:50:28.810 --> 00:50:30.560
You don\'t remember requesting it?

1042
00:50:32.300 --> 00:50:34.680
Well I don\'t remember requesting it,

1043
00:50:34.680 --> 00:50:36.865
but I do remember being interested in it,

1044
00:50:36.865 --> 00:50:38.983
and I would have requested it through Richard.

1045
00:50:41.510 --> 00:50:43.009
Colonel Baumgartner,

1046
00:50:43.009 --> 00:50:43.842
you say in your written testimony

1047
00:50:43.842 --> 00:50:46.690
you say that Mr. Schiffrin called and asked you in

1048
00:50:46.690 --> 00:50:50.100
July of 02 for information on the use of physical pressures

1049
00:50:50.100 --> 00:50:51.750
in SERE training,

1050
00:50:51.750 --> 00:50:53.467
is that correct your written testimony says that?

1051
00:50:53.467 --> 00:50:55.271
[Colonel Baumgartner] Yes Sir.

1052
00:50:55.271 --> 00:50:59.850
And in response you sent to Mr. Schiffrin

1053
00:50:59.850 --> 00:51:03.410
a list of physical pressures including stress positions,

1054
00:51:03.410 --> 00:51:07.180
walling, degradation, sensory deprivation and waterboarding,

1055
00:51:07.180 --> 00:51:09.750
you also send him a memo from Doctor O\'Grissik

1056
00:51:09.750 --> 00:51:12.300
about the psychological effects of that training,

1057
00:51:12.300 --> 00:51:13.581
is that correct?

1058
00:51:13.581 --> 00:51:14.414
[Colonel Baumgartner] Yes sir.

1059
00:51:14.414 --> 00:51:16.270 line:15%
Do the techniques we are talking about work?

1060
00:51:19.080 --> 00:51:20.760
In what frame of reference Sir?

1061
00:51:20.760 --> 00:51:23.380
Getting intelligence.

1062
00:51:23.380 --> 00:51:26.237
I\'m not an intelligence officer sir, I don\'t know.

1063
00:51:26.237 --> 00:51:29.520 line:15%
They work in our training process

1064
00:51:29.520 --> 00:51:31.970 line:15%
to demonstrate to students how to resist somebody

1065
00:51:33.290 --> 00:51:36.233
getting intelligence from you, and that\'s what they\'re for.

1066
00:51:38.262 --> 00:51:39.870
Based on your studies of this subject matter

1067
00:51:39.870 --> 00:51:42.350
is it fair to say that you can get almost anybody

1068
00:51:42.350 --> 00:51:45.150
to say anything if you\'re hard enough on them over time?

1069
00:51:47.164 --> 00:51:49.590 line:15%
I would say that that\'s true,

1070
00:51:49.590 --> 00:51:51.143 line:15%
but that\'s also the problem.

1071
00:51:52.000 --> 00:51:53.750 line:15%
You could get them to say anything.

1072
00:51:54.750 --> 00:51:55.743
Thank you.

1073
00:51:56.640 --> 00:51:58.960
You told once in a newspaper

1074
00:51:58.960 --> 00:52:01.020
that you have been water boarded yourself.

1075
00:52:01.020 --> 00:52:02.610
Oh yes, absolutely.

1076
00:52:02.610 --> 00:52:04.240 line:15%
You can\'t teach at the SERE school

1077
00:52:04.240 --> 00:52:07.150 line:15%
without having gone through all the techniques,

1078
00:52:07.150 --> 00:52:10.141 line:15%
so as part of my qualification

1079
00:52:10.141 --> 00:52:15.141
without knowing that it was coming I was waterboarded.

1080
00:52:15.390 --> 00:52:17.840
Can you tell me how it is?

1081
00:52:17.840 --> 00:52:20.180
It\'s horrible, you are being drowned,

1082
00:52:20.180 --> 00:52:21.013
you are being drowned

1083
00:52:21.013 --> 00:52:22.350
in an extremely controlled environment,

1084
00:52:22.350 --> 00:52:24.340
but you are being slowly drowned,

1085
00:52:24.340 --> 00:52:27.240
and you are put into a situation where

1086
00:52:27.240 --> 00:52:29.120
you have to answer a question

1087
00:52:29.120 --> 00:52:31.926
or could have the technique continue,

1088
00:52:31.926 --> 00:52:35.841
which is painful, and you will say anything at that point.

1089
00:52:35.841 --> 00:52:39.130
You will say up is down, black is white,

1090
00:52:39.130 --> 00:52:41.900
whatever they want you to say, they want you to confess,

1091
00:52:41.900 --> 00:52:43.420
you will Generally confess.

1092
00:52:43.420 --> 00:52:46.433
But you yourself know it\'s a false confession.

1093
00:52:47.360 --> 00:52:50.040
On November 27th, 2002

1094
00:52:50.040 --> 00:52:51.733
Jim Haynes drafted a memorandum

1095
00:52:51.733 --> 00:52:55.950
that will go down in history as the Rumsfeld memo.

1096
00:52:55.950 --> 00:52:58.670
He suggested three categories of techniques,

1097
00:52:58.670 --> 00:53:00.560
the first being the least aggressive,

1098
00:53:00.560 --> 00:53:02.990
and the third most aggressive.

1099
00:53:02.990 --> 00:53:05.810
All these so-called harsh interrogation techniques

1100
00:53:05.810 --> 00:53:08.170
Are based on the SERE program.

1101
00:53:08.170 --> 00:53:10.230
The use of stress positions,

1102
00:53:10.230 --> 00:53:12.923
like standing for a maximum of four hours.

1103
00:53:13.870 --> 00:53:15.373
Removal of clothing.

1104
00:53:17.250 --> 00:53:19.810
Using detainees individual phobias,

1105
00:53:19.810 --> 00:53:23.570
such as fear of dogs to induce stress.

1106
00:53:23.570 --> 00:53:25.080
In category three,

1107
00:53:25.080 --> 00:53:27.650
Rumsfeld\'s right-hand man recommended

1108
00:53:27.650 --> 00:53:30.090
use of a wet towel and dripping water

1109
00:53:30.090 --> 00:53:32.823
to induce the misperception of suffocation.

1110
00:53:33.800 --> 00:53:38.800 line:15%
To learn that the highest authority in your government

1111
00:53:40.760 --> 00:53:45.190 line:15%
has not only condoned such atrocities,

1112
00:53:45.190 --> 00:53:49.383
but asked for them is a new thing for me.

1113
00:53:50.694 --> 00:53:54.260
And frankly, it makes me ashamed to be an American citizen

1114
00:53:54.260 --> 00:53:55.703
under George W Bush.

1115
00:53:56.830 --> 00:53:57.763
Senator Graham.

1116
00:53:59.460 --> 00:54:00.293 line:15%
Is that correct,

1117
00:54:00.293 --> 00:54:03.250 line:15%
waterboarding was a category three technique?

1118
00:54:03.250 --> 00:54:06.910 line:15%
I think it was described as cloth

1119
00:54:06.910 --> 00:54:08.570 line:15%
with water dripped on it.

1120
00:54:08.570 --> 00:54:13.570 line:15%
I\'ve never really understood what that technique was.

1121
00:54:13.660 --> 00:54:15.000
Do you think that\'s legal?

1122
00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:18.373
As we sit here today absolutely yes it would be illegal.

1123
00:54:19.740 --> 00:54:22.113
And at the time, I don\'t know.

1124
00:54:23.740 --> 00:54:25.463
But the law is very clear now.

1125
00:54:28.410 --> 00:54:30.980
On December 2nd, 2002

1126
00:54:30.980 --> 00:54:34.113
Rumsfeld signed off on Haynes memo approving it.

1127
00:54:35.330 --> 00:54:36.670
Beneath his signature,

1128
00:54:36.670 --> 00:54:39.100
he added a handwritten comment.

1129
00:54:39.100 --> 00:54:41.530
I stand for eight to 10 hours a day,

1130
00:54:41.530 --> 00:54:43.923
why is standing limited to four hours?

1131
00:54:47.570 --> 00:54:50.170 line:15%
What impact might that note have

1132
00:54:50.170 --> 00:54:52.033 line:15%
on military personnel who read it?

1133
00:54:53.290 --> 00:54:54.500
Senator, when I first saw that note

1134
00:54:54.500 --> 00:54:56.660
I was shocked that any such note

1135
00:54:56.660 --> 00:54:58.350
would appear on this kind of document.

1136
00:54:58.350 --> 00:55:00.470 line:15%
I felt at the time that even though

1137
00:55:00.470 --> 00:55:02.327 line:15%
it may have been intended jocularly,

1138
00:55:03.450 --> 00:55:06.640 line:15%
and Secretary Rumsfeld has that style

1139
00:55:06.640 --> 00:55:09.560
in this kind of document such a handwritten notation

1140
00:55:09.560 --> 00:55:11.180
might be interpreted as a wink and a nod

1141
00:55:11.180 --> 00:55:13.180
to go beyond the limits of the document.

1142
00:55:14.170 --> 00:55:16.130
What did you feel when you read

1143
00:55:16.130 --> 00:55:20.620
these kind of techniques approved by the Defense Department?

1144
00:55:20.620 --> 00:55:23.733 line:15%
I was horrified, but the other feeling I felt was

1145
00:55:23.733 --> 00:55:26.850 line:15%
that this was a mistake,

1146
00:55:26.850 --> 00:55:30.180 line:15%
it did not occur to me that the authorization

1147
00:55:30.180 --> 00:55:33.640
of these kinds of techniques had been done deliberately,

1148
00:55:33.640 --> 00:55:36.846
meaning that it never crossed my mind

1149
00:55:36.846 --> 00:55:40.200
that this could have been a deliberate act.

1150
00:55:40.200 --> 00:55:42.850
I thought that both Jim Haynes,

1151
00:55:42.850 --> 00:55:44.020
the DOD General counselor

1152
00:55:44.020 --> 00:55:47.190
who had sent the memo to Secretary Rumsfeld,

1153
00:55:47.190 --> 00:55:48.840
and then Secretary Rumsfeld himself

1154
00:55:48.840 --> 00:55:53.244
had not thought through the implications

1155
00:55:53.244 --> 00:55:56.600
of these interrogation techniques,

1156
00:55:56.600 --> 00:55:58.700
simply because they were overworked.

1157
00:55:58.700 --> 00:56:00.120
And I was convinced that

1158
00:56:00.120 --> 00:56:02.290
as soon as I pointed out the mistake to them

1159
00:56:02.290 --> 00:56:04.824
from this authorization it would be withdrawn

1160
00:56:04.824 --> 00:56:07.500
and the situation would be corrected.

1161
00:56:07.500 --> 00:56:09.540
You were very confident about that?

1162
00:56:09.540 --> 00:56:11.000
Absolutely confident.

1163
00:56:11.000 --> 00:56:12.748
And now what do you think?

1164
00:56:12.748 --> 00:56:13.903
Well it wasn\'t a mistake, was it.

1165
00:56:15.130 --> 00:56:17.030
It\'s still a mistake in the sense that

1166
00:56:17.030 --> 00:56:20.630
it was a wrong decision on various different levels,

1167
00:56:20.630 --> 00:56:23.283
But it was purposely made.

1168
00:56:24.120 --> 00:56:26.150 line:15%
It\'s my understanding that when you saw

1169
00:56:26.150 --> 00:56:29.790 line:15%
the interrogation techniques Being proposed,

1170
00:56:29.790 --> 00:56:34.080
you felt a need to speak up and you did.

1171
00:56:34.080 --> 00:56:34.913 line:15%
What did you do?

1172
00:56:35.870 --> 00:56:38.170 line:15%
I immediately took it to Mr. Haynes

1173
00:56:38.170 --> 00:56:39.853 line:15%
and pointed out that fact to him.

1174
00:56:41.060 --> 00:56:43.760
I went to Jim I met with him for about an hour

1175
00:56:43.760 --> 00:56:46.030 line:15%
the day after I first saw the memorandum

1176
00:56:46.030 --> 00:56:49.290 line:15%
I explained to him why I felt the memorandum was mistaken,

1177
00:56:49.290 --> 00:56:52.061 line:15%
How it could lead to the application of torture,

1178
00:56:52.061 --> 00:56:56.520
and why the application of any kind of treatment

1179
00:56:56.520 --> 00:56:58.240
that would constitute at a minimum

1180
00:56:58.240 --> 00:57:00.567
cruel and inhumane and degrading treatment

1181
00:57:00.567 --> 00:57:02.090
and of course beyond that torture

1182
00:57:02.090 --> 00:57:04.880
would be a disaster for the country legally

1183
00:57:04.880 --> 00:57:06.050
from a national security standpoint

1184
00:57:06.050 --> 00:57:08.564
and from a foreign policy standpoint.

1185
00:57:08.564 --> 00:57:10.480
I had that conversation, Jim said very little,

1186
00:57:10.480 --> 00:57:12.190
in fact the only thing that he said was

1187
00:57:12.190 --> 00:57:13.023
that he didn\'t believe

1188
00:57:13.023 --> 00:57:15.421
that the memorandum authorized torture.

1189
00:57:15.421 --> 00:57:16.700
And then of course I also discussed these matters

1190
00:57:16.700 --> 00:57:19.364
With Air Force and Army lawyers,

1191
00:57:19.364 --> 00:57:23.940
all of them felt as I did that these policies

1192
00:57:23.940 --> 00:57:28.940
were all lawful and great mistakes from the country.

1193
00:57:29.110 --> 00:57:32.880
So I felt enormous support within the military services

1194
00:57:32.880 --> 00:57:34.715
for a position that opposed

1195
00:57:34.715 --> 00:57:38.303
the application of these interrogation techniques.

1196
00:57:39.300 --> 00:57:44.300 line:15%
Mr. Haynes, I want to go through those military services

1197
00:57:44.919 --> 00:57:47.623
comments with you.

1198
00:57:50.640 --> 00:57:51.673 line:15%
Tab 12,

1199
00:57:52.800 --> 00:57:56.403 line:15%
that\'s in November 7th 2002 memorandum from the army.

1200
00:58:00.190 --> 00:58:02.800 line:15%
Paragraph two, the memorandum says

1201
00:58:02.800 --> 00:58:06.150 line:15%
the army interposes significant legal policy

1202
00:58:06.150 --> 00:58:10.090 line:15%
and practical concerns regarding most of category two,

1203
00:58:10.090 --> 00:58:12.633 line:15%
and all of category three techniques.

1204
00:58:14.170 --> 00:58:15.250
Were you aware that the army

1205
00:58:15.250 --> 00:58:17.103
had concerns with those techniques?

1206
00:58:18.500 --> 00:58:21.623
Senator I don\'t recall seeing this memorandum before

1207
00:58:21.623 --> 00:58:25.973
and I don\'t recall specific objections of this nature.

1208
00:58:28.126 --> 00:58:28.959
Are you aware that the Air Force

1209
00:58:28.959 --> 00:58:31.680
had those concerns with those techniques?

1210
00:58:31.680 --> 00:58:33.763
I don\'t recall seeing this memorandum either.

1211
00:58:36.398 --> 00:58:40.330
You studiously ignored the memos

1212
00:58:40.330 --> 00:58:42.020
from the lawyers of the services,

1213
00:58:42.020 --> 00:58:46.137
they came to your office, you studiously ignored them.

1214
00:58:46.137 --> 00:58:47.860 line:15%
You say that I ignored them.

1215
00:58:47.860 --> 00:58:49.425 line:15%
Well you did ignore them.

1216
00:58:49.425 --> 00:58:50.671 line:15%
Well I didn\'t see them,

1217
00:58:50.671 --> 00:58:53.770 line:15%
if I didn\'t see them I didn\'t ignore them.

1218
00:58:53.770 --> 00:58:55.030 line:15%
You knew there were concerns.

1219
00:58:55.030 --> 00:58:59.387
Why not ask to see the memos that contain those concerns?

1220
00:58:59.387 --> 00:59:01.130
I didn\'t know that they existed.

1221
00:59:01.130 --> 00:59:02.510
You didn\'t know those memos existed?

1222
00:59:02.510 --> 00:59:04.190
Senator, I don\'t recall seeing them

1223
00:59:04.190 --> 00:59:06.540
and I don\'t recall knowing about the memoranda.

1224
00:59:07.683 --> 00:59:09.547
Listen, this is six years ago,

1225
00:59:09.547 --> 00:59:12.960
I probably saw millions and millions and millions

1226
00:59:12.960 --> 00:59:16.220
of pages of information over the seven years

1227
00:59:16.220 --> 00:59:17.520
that I served in that job.

1228
00:59:20.560 --> 00:59:23.440 line:15%
According to a declassified Pentagon document

1229
00:59:23.440 --> 00:59:25.270 line:15%
intelligence officers were trained

1230
00:59:25.270 --> 00:59:27.390 line:15%
in harsh interrogation techniques

1231
00:59:27.390 --> 00:59:29.860 line:15%
as early as September 2002,

1232
00:59:29.860 --> 00:59:33.403 line:15%
their training was supervised by SERE program psychologists.

1233
00:59:38.332 --> 00:59:41.131
♪ Roll out the torture ♪

1234
00:59:41.131 --> 00:59:43.408
♪ They have the truth on the run ♪

1235
00:59:43.408 --> 00:59:44.241
The participation of psychologists

1236
00:59:44.241 --> 00:59:45.783
in advising on torture methods

1237
00:59:45.783 --> 00:59:49.150
led to heated controversy within the APA,

1238
00:59:49.150 --> 00:59:51.423
the American Psychological Association.

1239
00:59:52.916 --> 00:59:54.560
♪ Thursday night at 10 ♪

1240
00:59:54.560 --> 00:59:57.530
I urge the members of the APA

1241
00:59:57.530 --> 01:00:01.840
to say clearly to the leadership of their organization

1242
01:00:01.840 --> 01:00:03.490
and to the world,

1243
01:00:03.490 --> 01:00:06.350
psychologists have a higher calling

1244
01:00:06.350 --> 01:00:08.840
than just following orders,

1245
01:00:08.840 --> 01:00:11.890
psychologists should not participate

1246
01:00:11.890 --> 01:00:14.632
in the US government\'s torture regime.

1247
01:00:14.632 --> 01:00:18.120
(audience applauds)

1248
01:00:18.120 --> 01:00:20.140
Psychologists were involved in this so-called

1249
01:00:20.140 --> 01:00:22.580
re-engineering of methods used

1250
01:00:22.580 --> 01:00:26.060
to help train American soldiers to withstand torture

1251
01:00:26.060 --> 01:00:29.370
so that they would be used affirmatively on detainees.

1252
01:00:29.370 --> 01:00:31.570
Offensively as it were.

1253
01:00:31.570 --> 01:00:33.380
They also were involved in the so-called

1254
01:00:33.380 --> 01:00:35.850
behavioral science consultation teams,

1255
01:00:35.850 --> 01:00:39.530
which are involved in the interrogation of individuals,

1256
01:00:39.530 --> 01:00:41.480
that they would assess people,

1257
01:00:41.480 --> 01:00:45.210
they would monitor the interrogations,

1258
01:00:45.210 --> 01:00:46.980
and they would give advice.

1259
01:00:46.980 --> 01:00:48.374
And did the psychologists

1260
01:00:48.374 --> 01:00:52.413
according to your information attempt torture stations?

1261
01:00:54.350 --> 01:00:57.493
Most of that information remains classified.

1262
01:00:58.360 --> 01:01:00.950
We do know from one interrogation law

1263
01:01:02.765 --> 01:01:05.580
that a psychologist was present and giving advice,

1264
01:01:05.580 --> 01:01:08.470
but doctors too are implicated,

1265
01:01:08.470 --> 01:01:11.960
we had one case where someone\'s shoulder was dislocated

1266
01:01:11.960 --> 01:01:13.700
from a suspension,

1267
01:01:13.700 --> 01:01:15.700
and the doctor or medic,

1268
01:01:15.700 --> 01:01:16.840
we are not sure who it was,

1269
01:01:16.840 --> 01:01:19.870
but some medical person relocated the shoulder

1270
01:01:19.870 --> 01:01:22.214
and then the torture continued.

1271
01:01:22.214 --> 01:01:23.330
(ominous music)

1272
01:01:23.330 --> 01:01:26.590
In November 2002 General Geoffrey Miller

1273
01:01:26.590 --> 01:01:29.790
was assigned to command Guantanamo detention camp,

1274
01:01:29.790 --> 01:01:31.680
nicknamed Gitmo.

1275
01:01:31.680 --> 01:01:33.870
He was the one who oversaw the introduction

1276
01:01:33.870 --> 01:01:36.170
of the harsh interrogation techniques

1277
01:01:36.170 --> 01:01:38.900
to be used on high-value detainees,

1278
01:01:38.900 --> 01:01:40.720
as the military calls them.

1279
01:01:40.720 --> 01:01:44.210
Mohammed Al Khatami was first on the list.

1280
01:01:44.210 --> 01:01:47.730
For 51 days his torments were duly noted in a log

1281
01:01:47.730 --> 01:01:49.560
which was leaked to the press.

1282
01:01:49.560 --> 01:01:52.960
December 20th, the detainee was strip-searched,

1283
01:01:52.960 --> 01:01:55.100
he stated he did not like the females

1284
01:01:55.100 --> 01:01:56.820
viewing his naked body,

1285
01:01:56.820 --> 01:01:59.570
the interrogator began teaching the detainee lessons,

1286
01:01:59.570 --> 01:02:03.640
as stay, come, and bark like a dog.

1287
01:02:03.640 --> 01:02:06.240
The presence of a psychologist and a physician

1288
01:02:06.240 --> 01:02:08.510
was noted several times.

1289
01:02:08.510 --> 01:02:12.490
November 27th, control put detainee in the swivel chair

1290
01:02:12.490 --> 01:02:15.690
at major L\'s suggestion to keep him awake.

1291
01:02:15.690 --> 01:02:18.663
Major Lesso was the head psychologist at Guantanamo.

1292
01:02:22.916 --> 01:02:25.523
The whole truth, and nothing but the truth help me God.

1293
01:02:27.290 --> 01:02:28.390
Senator Reed.

1294
01:02:28.390 --> 01:02:29.810
Thank you Mr. Chairman,

1295
01:02:29.810 --> 01:02:32.750 line:15%
General Miller at Guantanamo it\'s been reported

1296
01:02:32.750 --> 01:02:34.880 line:15%
that you developed a 72 point metrics

1297
01:02:34.880 --> 01:02:36.730 line:15%
for stress and duress,

1298
01:02:36.730 --> 01:02:38.270 line:15%
lays out types of coercion,

1299
01:02:38.270 --> 01:02:39.270
escalating levels,

1300
01:02:39.270 --> 01:02:41.000
may include harsh heat or cold

1301
01:02:41.000 --> 01:02:43.480
withholding food, hooding for days at a time,

1302
01:02:43.480 --> 01:02:46.210
naked isolation and cold dark cells, is that correct?

1303
01:02:46.210 --> 01:02:48.320 line:15%
Sir, that is categorically incorrect.

1304
01:02:48.320 --> 01:02:49.310 line:15%
That never happened?

1305
01:02:49.310 --> 01:02:51.433 line:15%
That is categorically incorrect.

1306
01:02:53.410 --> 01:02:55.500
Would you also confirm for us

1307
01:02:55.500 --> 01:02:58.340 line:15%
that at minimum everyone regardless

1308
01:02:58.340 --> 01:03:00.390 line:15%
of their status at Guantanamo Bay

1309
01:03:00.390 --> 01:03:02.060 line:15%
or anywhere else to your knowledge

1310
01:03:02.060 --> 01:03:04.320
is entitled to be treated humanely?

1311
01:03:04.320 --> 01:03:06.630
Yes Senator, every enemy combatant

1312
01:03:06.630 --> 01:03:10.313
who was at Guantanamo is detained in a humane manner.

1313
01:03:12.910 --> 01:03:15.230
The agony the Guantanamo prisoners suffered

1314
01:03:15.230 --> 01:03:17.350
raised a huge controversy.

1315
01:03:17.350 --> 01:03:20.720
On the one side, the CIA and military intelligence

1316
01:03:20.720 --> 01:03:23.030
obsessed with gathering intelligence.

1317
01:03:23.030 --> 01:03:26.300
On the other, the legal departments like the FBI

1318
01:03:26.300 --> 01:03:28.180
seeking to build a case.

1319
01:03:28.180 --> 01:03:30.130
These agents were opposed to torture

1320
01:03:30.130 --> 01:03:31.880
from a moral point of view.

1321
01:03:31.880 --> 01:03:34.430
But they also knew that any suspicion of torture

1322
01:03:34.430 --> 01:03:36.783
would render the procedure null and void.

1323
01:03:41.750 --> 01:03:43.010 line:15%
My name is Amrit Singh,

1324
01:03:43.010 --> 01:03:45.050 line:15%
I\'m a staff attorney at the ACLU,

1325
01:03:45.050 --> 01:03:46.720 line:15%
the American Civil Liberties Union

1326
01:03:46.720 --> 01:03:49.510 line:15%
and I am counsel to plaintiffs in the lawsuit

1327
01:03:49.510 --> 01:03:52.090
ACLU versus Department of Defense.

1328
01:03:52.090 --> 01:03:53.470
While we continue to litigate

1329
01:03:53.470 --> 01:03:55.850
the proper withholding of information,

1330
01:03:55.850 --> 01:03:57.970
the FOIA lawsuit has forced the government

1331
01:03:57.970 --> 01:04:00.820
to publicly disclose more than 100,000 pages

1332
01:04:00.820 --> 01:04:03.710
of its documents relating to the treatment of prisoners

1333
01:04:03.710 --> 01:04:06.020
held in United States custody abroad.

1334
01:04:06.020 --> 01:04:09.100
And I have personally reviewed all of these documents.

1335
01:04:09.100 --> 01:04:11.690
For example, in one government document

1336
01:04:11.690 --> 01:04:13.885
and FBI agent describes,

1337
01:04:13.885 --> 01:04:16.820
on a couple of occasions I entered interview rooms

1338
01:04:16.820 --> 01:04:19.280
to find a detainee chained hand and foot

1339
01:04:19.280 --> 01:04:21.610
in a fetal position to the floor with no chair,

1340
01:04:21.610 --> 01:04:22.820
food or water,

1341
01:04:22.820 --> 01:04:25.540
most times they had urinated or defecated on themselves

1342
01:04:25.540 --> 01:04:28.770
and had been left there for 18 to 24 hours or more.

1343
01:04:28.770 --> 01:04:31.240
On one occasion the air conditioning had been turned off,

1344
01:04:31.240 --> 01:04:34.060
making the temperature in the unventilated room

1345
01:04:34.060 --> 01:04:36.080
probably well over 100 degrees.

1346
01:04:36.080 --> 01:04:38.820
The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor

1347
01:04:38.820 --> 01:04:40.880
with a pile of hair lying next to him.

1348
01:04:40.880 --> 01:04:42.680
He had apparently literally been pulling

1349
01:04:42.680 --> 01:04:44.580
its own hair out throughout the night.

1350
01:04:45.610 --> 01:04:48.270 line:15%
FBI agents what observing this

1351
01:04:48.270 --> 01:04:52.600 line:15%
Andy were frankly in shock at what they were seeing.

1352
01:04:52.600 --> 01:04:53.880
And they were trying to report it

1353
01:04:53.880 --> 01:04:56.163
in as nice a way as they could.

1354
01:04:57.143 --> 01:05:01.513
I think if some of these things had happened anywhere else,

1355
01:05:02.997 --> 01:05:05.690
arrests would have been made,

1356
01:05:05.690 --> 01:05:08.960
because it\'s clearly in violation of federal law.

1357
01:05:08.960 --> 01:05:11.180
General Miller who as I understand was not

1358
01:05:11.180 --> 01:05:16.083
an intelligence officer was placed in charge of the place,

1359
01:05:17.026 --> 01:05:18.500
and I\'m not sure what advice he was getting,

1360
01:05:18.500 --> 01:05:20.044
but it wasn\'t good advice,

1361
01:05:20.044 --> 01:05:23.190
and there was debate and contention

1362
01:05:23.190 --> 01:05:27.523
between the FBI who was observing these things,

1363
01:05:28.694 --> 01:05:30.233
and the military,

1364
01:05:31.553 --> 01:05:34.867
and the military\'s posture was, and I quote,

1365
01:05:37.430 --> 01:05:39.453
lead, follow or get out of the way.

1366
01:05:40.570 --> 01:05:42.360
Apparently the FBI has

1367
01:05:42.360 --> 01:05:44.894
been pushed aside at Guantanamo.

1368
01:05:44.894 --> 01:05:46.561
Do you confirm that?

1369
01:05:47.960 --> 01:05:52.960
Yeah, I think eventually the FBI was moved aside.

1370
01:05:58.990 --> 01:06:01.180
March 20th, 2003,

1371
01:06:01.180 --> 01:06:03.410
United States invaded Iraq,

1372
01:06:03.410 --> 01:06:05.660
claiming that the Saddam Hussein regime

1373
01:06:05.660 --> 01:06:08.750
was harboring weapons of mass destruction.

1374
01:06:08.750 --> 01:06:11.878
A state lie which cost the lives

1375
01:06:11.878 --> 01:06:14.850
of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

1376
01:06:14.850 --> 01:06:16.070
Turn round.

1377
01:06:16.070 --> 01:06:17.360
Kneel down.

1378
01:06:17.360 --> 01:06:18.193
Kneel down.

1379
01:06:19.960 --> 01:06:21.160
The official goal was

1380
01:06:21.160 --> 01:06:24.940
to track down Saddam Hussein and his closest aides,

1381
01:06:24.940 --> 01:06:28.205
but very soon the occupation led to an insurrection

1382
01:06:28.205 --> 01:06:30.473
which turned into a civil war.

1383
01:06:32.620 --> 01:06:35.180
In a free Iraq there will be no more wars

1384
01:06:35.180 --> 01:06:37.083
of aggression against your neighbors,

1385
01:06:38.180 --> 01:06:40.370
no more poison factories,

1386
01:06:40.370 --> 01:06:42.670
no more executions of dissidents,

1387
01:06:42.670 --> 01:06:45.243
no more torture chambers and rape rooms.

1388
01:06:47.920 --> 01:06:50.040
In Iraq military operations

1389
01:06:50.040 --> 01:06:52.910
were led by General Ricardo Sanchez,

1390
01:06:52.910 --> 01:06:54.100
he was directly in charge

1391
01:06:54.100 --> 01:06:57.550
of Colonel Thomas Pappa\'s 205th Brigade,

1392
01:06:57.550 --> 01:07:00.410
an MI, or military intelligence unit

1393
01:07:00.410 --> 01:07:02.500
in charge of gathering information,

1394
01:07:02.500 --> 01:07:04.593
and therefore interrogations.

1395
01:07:06.840 --> 01:07:08.950 line:15%
How would you describe the mood

1396
01:07:08.950 --> 01:07:12.843 line:15%
inside the intelligence community when you arrived in Iraq?

1397
01:07:14.040 --> 01:07:15.810 line:15%
Very aggressive.

1398
01:07:15.810 --> 01:07:17.453
We wanted to get answers,

1399
01:07:18.290 --> 01:07:20.790
with some people it was almost that

1400
01:07:20.790 --> 01:07:24.730
we wanted to get revenge.

1401
01:07:24.730 --> 01:07:28.420
And we were told that Saddam was behind 9/11 at the time,

1402
01:07:28.420 --> 01:07:31.870
and that these were enemies,

1403
01:07:31.870 --> 01:07:34.740
and so there was a lot of anger and revenge

1404
01:07:34.740 --> 01:07:36.683
in the army and intelligence as well.

1405
01:07:37.950 --> 01:07:38.783
Front.

1406
01:07:40.567 --> 01:07:41.933
Face the fucking front.

1407
01:07:44.828 --> 01:07:45.920
Getting intelligence

1408
01:07:45.920 --> 01:07:48.880
was really I would say an obsession?

1409
01:07:48.880 --> 01:07:50.340
Yes, absolutely.

1410
01:07:50.340 --> 01:07:53.760
Well intelligence is what wins or loses a war,

1411
01:07:53.760 --> 01:07:57.270
and in this war it was more important than ever.

1412
01:07:57.270 --> 01:07:58.900
Anyone could be the enemy,

1413
01:07:58.900 --> 01:08:01.800
there were no front lines, there were no uniforms,

1414
01:08:01.800 --> 01:08:03.570
and it\'s very very difficult

1415
01:08:03.570 --> 01:08:05.294
and it\'s very difficult on the soldier

1416
01:08:05.294 --> 01:08:09.300
to go out every day and just see normal citizens,

1417
01:08:09.300 --> 01:08:12.579
Iraqis, old, young, children, men, women,

1418
01:08:12.579 --> 01:08:16.240
that laugh, play, wave at you, shake your hand,

1419
01:08:16.240 --> 01:08:19.510
and that maybe later on that day could be shooting at you.

1420
01:08:19.510 --> 01:08:21.830 line:15%
There was pressure for us

1421
01:08:21.830 --> 01:08:23.630 line:15%
to get the intelligence that we needed

1422
01:08:23.630 --> 01:08:25.640 line:15%
to drive our operations.

1423
01:08:25.640 --> 01:08:28.740 line:15%
And I would have been derelict

1424
01:08:32.170 --> 01:08:35.930
and grossly negligent if I hadn\'t been pushing hard

1425
01:08:35.930 --> 01:08:37.210
to get that intelligence so

1426
01:08:37.210 --> 01:08:39.060
that we could accomplish our mission.

1427
01:08:40.600 --> 01:08:42.690
General Sanchez was also in charge of

1428
01:08:42.690 --> 01:08:44.750
the 800th military brigade,

1429
01:08:44.750 --> 01:08:47.170
led by General Janice Karpinski,

1430
01:08:47.170 --> 01:08:49.090
she managed supplies and security

1431
01:08:49.090 --> 01:08:52.540
at the 17 Iraqi prisons including Abu Ghraib

1432
01:08:52.540 --> 01:08:54.510
and was in command of the MPs,

1433
01:08:54.510 --> 01:08:57.073
the military police guarding the prisons.

1434
01:08:58.890 --> 01:09:01.830
On a timeline you have this raid,

1435
01:09:01.830 --> 01:09:04.223 line:15%
or this major operation up in Mosul,

1436
01:09:05.242 --> 01:09:09.090 line:15%
the people that they now start to bring in two Abu Ghraib,

1437
01:09:09.090 --> 01:09:14.090
are wearing these prisoner tags that say security detainee,

1438
01:09:14.170 --> 01:09:17.090
this is a term we have never used before

1439
01:09:17.090 --> 01:09:18.910
in any of our prisoner of war operations

1440
01:09:18.910 --> 01:09:20.150
or detention operations.

1441
01:09:20.150 --> 01:09:23.160
So they start bringing in this record number of,

1442
01:09:23.160 --> 01:09:25.204
first 30, then 50,

1443
01:09:25.204 --> 01:09:27.950
and as the population is growing

1444
01:09:27.950 --> 01:09:31.610
the military intelligence interrogators

1445
01:09:31.610 --> 01:09:32.990
are working overtime,

1446
01:09:32.990 --> 01:09:34.870
and they are still not getting any information

1447
01:09:34.870 --> 01:09:38.610
From any of these security detainees.

1448
01:09:38.610 --> 01:09:42.430 line:15%
Anyone from say 14 years old to 70 years old,

1449
01:09:42.430 --> 01:09:44.130 line:15%
if they were a male of the village

1450
01:09:44.130 --> 01:09:47.330 line:15%
would be rounded up and brought to an interrogation center.

1451
01:09:47.330 --> 01:09:49.470
And I or my team will interrogate them,

1452
01:09:49.470 --> 01:09:52.060
and even if I found that they were not guilty of anything,

1453
01:09:52.060 --> 01:09:53.100
they would not be released

1454
01:09:53.100 --> 01:09:55.200
sometimes for days or weeks,

1455
01:09:55.200 --> 01:09:59.260
depending on other interrogations or charges.

1456
01:09:59.260 --> 01:10:00.770
Not guilty of anything,

1457
01:10:00.770 --> 01:10:03.653
except being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

1458
01:10:04.580 --> 01:10:05.720
And they didn\'t release them?

1459
01:10:05.720 --> 01:10:07.630
They did not release anybody.

1460
01:10:07.630 --> 01:10:08.630
Why?

1461
01:10:08.630 --> 01:10:10.930
Because they were afraid that they were going to release

1462
01:10:10.930 --> 01:10:12.610
the next Osama bin Laden,

1463
01:10:12.610 --> 01:10:14.180
or they were going to release somebody

1464
01:10:14.180 --> 01:10:16.900
that did have information and then they missed it.

1465
01:10:16.900 --> 01:10:19.326
They were losing confidence in their own abilities

1466
01:10:19.326 --> 01:10:21.880
to get real information.

1467
01:10:21.880 --> 01:10:25.650 line:15%
When we asked in the summer of 2003 for guidance

1468
01:10:25.650 --> 01:10:27.880 line:15%
and we ask for additional training

1469
01:10:27.880 --> 01:10:29.810 line:15%
because we know that we have a problem

1470
01:10:30.710 --> 01:10:32.520
inside of Iraq in both detention

1471
01:10:32.520 --> 01:10:34.970
operations and in interrogations,

1472
01:10:34.970 --> 01:10:37.392
so eventually what winds up happening is

1473
01:10:37.392 --> 01:10:41.260
that the expertise that exists

1474
01:10:41.260 --> 01:10:43.930
is what exists at Guantanamo,

1475
01:10:43.930 --> 01:10:45.140
because they are the only ones

1476
01:10:45.140 --> 01:10:48.080
that have been doing interrogations,

1477
01:10:48.080 --> 01:10:49.180
not tactical questioning.

1478
01:10:49.180 --> 01:10:51.710
That\'s why General Miller came to Iraq?

1479
01:10:51.710 --> 01:10:55.373
And that is as part of my pleas for help.

1480
01:10:56.240 --> 01:10:58.943
A document by General Miller now declassified

1481
01:10:58.943 --> 01:11:01.120
confirms that he visited Iraq

1482
01:11:01.120 --> 01:11:05.110
from August 31st to September 9th 2003.

1483
01:11:05.110 --> 01:11:06.840
He led a team of personnel

1484
01:11:06.840 --> 01:11:09.440
experienced in strategic interrogation,

1485
01:11:09.440 --> 01:11:12.380
whose goal was to rapidly exploit internees

1486
01:11:12.380 --> 01:11:14.313
for actionable intelligence.

1487
01:11:15.850 --> 01:11:18.640 line:15%
He said his plan was to get more lie

1488
01:11:18.640 --> 01:11:20.850 line:15%
the operation at Abu Ghraib.

1489
01:11:20.850 --> 01:11:22.827 line:15%
He was going to make it,

1490
01:11:22.827 --> 01:11:24.670 line:15%
and he said it matter-of-factly,

1491
01:11:24.670 --> 01:11:27.320 line:15%
look I\'m going to make Abu Ghraib

1492
01:11:27.320 --> 01:11:29.820
the interrogation center for all of Iraq.

1493
01:11:29.820 --> 01:11:32.510
Without blinking an eye General Miller said

1494
01:11:32.510 --> 01:11:34.420
it\'s my opinion now that you are treating

1495
01:11:34.420 --> 01:11:36.620
the prisoners too well.

1496
01:11:36.620 --> 01:11:40.450
You effectively have to treat them like dogs

1497
01:11:40.450 --> 01:11:43.803
in order for them to understand who is in charge.

1498
01:11:46.840 --> 01:11:50.690
And what he wanted the military police to do

1499
01:11:50.690 --> 01:11:55.040
was set the conditions for effective interrogations.

1500
01:11:55.040 --> 01:11:56.510
So the interrogators would get

1501
01:11:56.510 --> 01:11:58.969
the information much more quickly.

1502
01:11:58.969 --> 01:12:01.969
(suspenseful music)

1503
01:12:04.820 --> 01:12:07.850
General Sanchez, General Miller\'s report

1504
01:12:07.850 --> 01:12:08.910
as I understand it

1505
01:12:08.910 --> 01:12:12.640 line:15%
had observations and recommendations,

1506
01:12:12.640 --> 01:12:14.280 line:15%
one of those recommendations was,

1507
01:12:14.280 --> 01:12:16.150 line:15%
and I quote from his recommendations

1508
01:12:16.150 --> 01:12:20.690 line:15%
it is essential that the guard force be actively engaged

1509
01:12:20.690 --> 01:12:24.160
in setting the conditions for successful exploitation

1510
01:12:24.160 --> 01:12:26.263
of the internees.

1511
01:12:27.820 --> 01:12:30.300
Am I accurate so far General Sanchez?

1512
01:12:30.300 --> 01:12:31.450
Yes Senator.

1513
01:12:31.450 --> 01:12:32.620
General Miller?

1514
01:12:32.620 --> 01:12:33.960
Yes sir, you are.

1515
01:12:33.960 --> 01:12:36.457
Well General Miller,

1516
01:12:36.457 --> 01:12:38.260
do you believe that your instructions

1517
01:12:38.260 --> 01:12:40.460
may have been misinterpreted?

1518
01:12:40.460 --> 01:12:42.630
Senator, I do not.

1519
01:12:42.630 --> 01:12:44.770
According to General Taguba\'s report

1520
01:12:46.370 --> 01:12:48.890
soldiers were questioned that were involved in this.

1521
01:12:48.890 --> 01:12:50.500
Soldier number one,

1522
01:12:50.500 --> 01:12:52.840
question, have you ever been directed by the MI,

1523
01:12:52.840 --> 01:12:54.360
military intelligence personnel

1524
01:12:54.360 --> 01:12:55.760
or any government agency

1525
01:12:55.760 --> 01:12:58.210
to soften up the prisoner prior to interrogation?

1526
01:12:58.210 --> 01:12:59.790
Answer, yes.

1527
01:12:59.790 --> 01:13:01.660
Sometimes they would ask me to show a prisoner

1528
01:13:01.660 --> 01:13:03.150
quote special attention.

1529
01:13:03.150 --> 01:13:04.320
Soldier number four,

1530
01:13:04.320 --> 01:13:06.740
have you ever heard MI insinuate two guards

1531
01:13:06.740 --> 01:13:09.360
to abuse inmates in any type of manner?

1532
01:13:09.360 --> 01:13:10.193
Yes.

1533
01:13:10.193 --> 01:13:11.040
What was said?

1534
01:13:11.040 --> 01:13:14.240
Answer, quote, they said loosen this guy up for us,

1535
01:13:14.240 --> 01:13:16.060
make sure he has a bad night,

1536
01:13:16.060 --> 01:13:17.430
make sure he gets the treatment.

1537
01:13:17.430 --> 01:13:20.373
You see my point, Major General Miller?

1538
01:13:21.330 --> 01:13:23.473
There must have been a breakdown somewhere.

1539
01:13:24.400 --> 01:13:29.400 line:15%
Sir, in my estimation it\'s a breakdown in leadership

1540
01:13:29.740 --> 01:13:34.474 line:15%
on how that follow-on actions may have occurred,

1541
01:13:34.474 --> 01:13:36.830
but I was not present at that time,

1542
01:13:36.830 --> 01:13:39.370
so it would be difficult for me to give a valid assessment.

1543
01:13:39.370 --> 01:13:41.980
General Sanchez, my time has expired,

1544
01:13:41.980 --> 01:13:43.163
General Sanchez please?

1545
01:13:44.339 --> 01:13:45.800
Senator I wanted to make one clarification

1546
01:13:45.800 --> 01:13:49.359
that General Miller did not issue any orders.

1547
01:13:49.359 --> 01:13:50.670 line:15%
Those orders were my orders.

1548
01:13:50.670 --> 01:13:52.610 line:15%
I guess my question was better directed to you.

1549
01:13:52.610 --> 01:13:53.720
I think the witnesses,

1550
01:13:53.720 --> 01:13:55.720
my time has expire, thank you very much.

1551
01:13:57.370 --> 01:13:59.990
Five days after General Miller\'s visit,

1552
01:13:59.990 --> 01:14:02.250
General Sanchez signed a directive

1553
01:14:02.250 --> 01:14:06.180
entitled interrogation and counter resistance policy.

1554
01:14:06.180 --> 01:14:08.030
He specified that it was modeled

1555
01:14:08.030 --> 01:14:10.420
on the one implemented for interrogations

1556
01:14:10.420 --> 01:14:12.600
conducted at Guantanamo Bay.

1557
01:14:12.600 --> 01:14:15.180
The directive was addressed to Colonel Papas

1558
01:14:15.180 --> 01:14:17.380
whom General Sanchez had placed in charge

1559
01:14:17.380 --> 01:14:21.640
of the MP prison guards to General Karpinski\'s dismay.

1560
01:14:21.640 --> 01:14:24.340
The list includes stress positions,

1561
01:14:24.340 --> 01:14:26.840
isolation for more than 30 days.

1562
01:14:26.840 --> 01:14:30.160
Presence of working dogs to exploit the Arab fear of dogs

1563
01:14:30.160 --> 01:14:33.180
while maintaining security during interrogations.

1564
01:14:33.180 --> 01:14:34.613
Dogs will be muzzled.

1565
01:14:36.011 --> 01:14:39.011
(suspenseful music)

1566
01:14:47.520 --> 01:14:50.410
When we discussed this it was very specific

1567
01:14:50.410 --> 01:14:53.010 line:15%
If there were gonna be any dogs used at Abu Ghraib

1568
01:14:53.010 --> 01:14:55.210 line:15%
then they have to be muzzled and controlled.

1569
01:14:56.360 --> 01:15:00.110 line:15%
But they were not gonna be in the use

1570
01:15:02.222 --> 01:15:05.410
of interrogation or intimidation of prisoners.

1571
01:15:05.410 --> 01:15:06.550
But in this case what

1572
01:15:06.550 --> 01:15:08.102
you write in your memorandum,

1573
01:15:08.102 --> 01:15:12.020
it\'s an interrogation policy.

1574
01:15:12.020 --> 01:15:13.900
Sure, right.

1575
01:15:13.900 --> 01:15:15.600
To induce fear.

1576
01:15:15.600 --> 01:15:18.240
No, that\'s not what we say.

1577
01:15:18.240 --> 01:15:19.573
It\'s what you say,

1578
01:15:19.573 --> 01:15:20.807
I have it here if you want,

1579
01:15:20.807 --> 01:15:23.723
but to induce fear among the prisoners.

1580
01:15:25.355 --> 01:15:29.040
It was approved I understand General,

1581
01:15:29.040 --> 01:15:31.540
it was approved by Rumsfeld,

1582
01:15:31.540 --> 01:15:33.630
it was approved in Guantanamo.

1583
01:15:33.630 --> 01:15:37.970
Don\'t you think that maybe you entered

1584
01:15:37.970 --> 01:15:41.820
in a very slippery slope without knowing that,

1585
01:15:41.820 --> 01:15:43.370
would you say that?

1586
01:15:43.370 --> 01:15:44.980
Well I don\'t know,

1587
01:15:44.980 --> 01:15:48.380
Obviously because we can actually wind up abusing that,

1588
01:15:48.380 --> 01:15:50.320
there is no way that in retrospect

1589
01:15:50.320 --> 01:15:52.751
you can say that we didn\'t,

1590
01:15:52.751 --> 01:15:55.823
the obvious answer is yes, of course we did.

1591
01:15:56.916 --> 01:15:59.916
(suspenseful music)

1592
01:16:12.548 --> 01:16:13.381
Do you remember when you saw

1593
01:16:13.381 --> 01:16:16.551
the photographs for the first time from Abu Ghraib,

1594
01:16:16.551 --> 01:16:17.384
do you remember your reaction at the time?

1595
01:16:17.384 --> 01:16:20.313
Yes, it was horrible.

1596
01:16:21.180 --> 01:16:23.283
It was repulsive.

1597
01:16:26.790 --> 01:16:29.810
It was unmistakable,

1598
01:16:29.810 --> 01:16:32.140
it was reported within 48 hours

1599
01:16:32.140 --> 01:16:34.740
to the highest levels of leadership at the Pentagon.

1600
01:16:36.960 --> 01:16:40.730
And in fact there is tremendous concern from Washington

1601
01:16:40.730 --> 01:16:44.140
about this leaking before the State of the Union Address

1602
01:16:44.140 --> 01:16:45.933
in January 2004,

1603
01:16:47.042 --> 01:16:49.592
because they understand the gravity of the problem.

1604
01:16:50.450 --> 01:16:52.670
The story of the Abu Ghraib photos

1605
01:16:52.670 --> 01:16:55.100
was put together by journalist Mark Benjamin

1606
01:16:55.100 --> 01:16:56.630
of Salon.com,

1607
01:16:56.630 --> 01:16:59.430
an online investigative newspaper.

1608
01:16:59.430 --> 01:17:01.360
All the shots were taken at night

1609
01:17:01.360 --> 01:17:05.780
between October 17th and December 30th 2003.

1610
01:17:05.780 --> 01:17:07.240
In early January,

1611
01:17:07.240 --> 01:17:09.430
a guard turned a CD of the photos

1612
01:17:09.430 --> 01:17:12.360
over to the Army criminal investigation division

1613
01:17:12.360 --> 01:17:14.683
Which led to an administrative inquiry.

1614
01:17:16.640 --> 01:17:17.760
Putting in stress positions,

1615
01:17:17.760 --> 01:17:19.010
those are two techniques approved

1616
01:17:19.010 --> 01:17:20.480
by the secretary of defense.

1617
01:17:25.700 --> 01:17:27.801
This is Al Giamatti,

1618
01:17:27.801 --> 01:17:30.100
he\'s a detainee that the CIA brought to Abu Ghraib prison

1619
01:17:30.100 --> 01:17:33.780
on November 5th 2003 for an interrogation in a shower room,

1620
01:17:33.780 --> 01:17:35.680
he died during the interrogation,

1621
01:17:35.680 --> 01:17:38.460
his body was kept on ice and shipped out the next day.

1622
01:17:38.460 --> 01:17:40.690
The army determined his death was a homicide,

1623
01:17:40.690 --> 01:17:42.883
and nobody has ever been held responsible.

1624
01:17:44.320 --> 01:17:46.200
The reason why there was an investigation conducted

1625
01:17:46.200 --> 01:17:47.770
is because there were photos.

1626
01:17:47.770 --> 01:17:49.870
Photos are the problem.

1627
01:17:49.870 --> 01:17:51.990
Up through the very top levels of the Pentagon

1628
01:17:51.990 --> 01:17:53.240
there was a concerted effort

1629
01:17:53.240 --> 01:17:54.810
to portray the abuse at Abu Ghraib

1630
01:17:54.810 --> 01:17:57.000
as an isolated incident of bad apples,

1631
01:17:57.000 --> 01:17:58.292
and yes the investigation

1632
01:17:58.292 --> 01:18:03.023
helped that impression along further.

1633
01:18:04.400 --> 01:18:05.980
To diffuse a possible scandal

1634
01:18:05.980 --> 01:18:07.960
should the photos be made public?

1635
01:18:07.960 --> 01:18:10.300
General Sanchez had General Taguba

1636
01:18:10.300 --> 01:18:15.020
conduct an investigation on January 19th 2004.

1637
01:18:15.020 --> 01:18:18.290 line:15%
His mission, to investigate the conduct of operations

1638
01:18:18.290 --> 01:18:21.080 line:15%
within the 800th military police Brigade

1639
01:18:21.080 --> 01:18:23.613 line:15%
under General Janice Karpinski\'s command.

1640
01:18:24.480 --> 01:18:25.810 line:15%
Testifying before us today

1641
01:18:25.810 --> 01:18:28.490 line:15%
is Major General Antonio Taguba,

1642
01:18:28.490 --> 01:18:31.980
US Army deputy commander for support coalition

1643
01:18:31.980 --> 01:18:34.053
forces land command.

1644
01:18:35.170 --> 01:18:40.170 line:15%
What is the highest ranking officer you interrogated?

1645
01:18:40.570 --> 01:18:43.733 line:15%
My interview Sir, Brigadier General Janice Karpinski.

1646
01:18:44.760 --> 01:18:48.570
You didn\'t talk to General Sanchez?

1647
01:18:48.570 --> 01:18:49.410
No sir.

1648
01:18:49.410 --> 01:18:53.080
So what may have happened above General Karpinski

1649
01:18:53.930 --> 01:18:55.900
is an open book,

1650
01:18:55.900 --> 01:18:58.790
in other words, or it\'s a closed book,

1651
01:18:58.790 --> 01:19:00.740
no one knows what may or may

1652
01:19:00.740 --> 01:19:02.673
not have occurred above that level?

1653
01:19:03.550 --> 01:19:06.880 line:15%
General Antonio Taguba has said himself

1654
01:19:06.880 --> 01:19:09.030 line:15%
that he could only go so far,

1655
01:19:09.030 --> 01:19:10.310 line:15%
there were limits put on him,

1656
01:19:10.310 --> 01:19:12.770 line:15%
he says he was in a box

1657
01:19:12.770 --> 01:19:16.163
and he couldn\'t really investigate beyond a certain rank,

1658
01:19:17.300 --> 01:19:18.330
so he could never get to the top,

1659
01:19:18.330 --> 01:19:19.780
he could only look down.

1660
01:19:19.780 --> 01:19:22.913 line:15%
They really did find a perfect scapegoat in me.

1661
01:19:25.330 --> 01:19:26.870
This investigation finally,

1662
01:19:26.870 --> 01:19:30.370
and the hearing following the Abu Ghraib scandal

1663
01:19:30.370 --> 01:19:32.720
looked like a show or charade.

1664
01:19:34.010 --> 01:19:34.843
Absolutely,

1665
01:19:34.843 --> 01:19:38.660
set up specific purpose,

1666
01:19:38.660 --> 01:19:43.410
let\'s tie this investigation up into a nice little package,

1667
01:19:43.410 --> 01:19:46.010
the president will condemn them as seven bad apples

1668
01:19:46.010 --> 01:19:47.811
out-of-control on the night shift.

1669
01:19:47.811 --> 01:19:50.561
(dramatic music)

1670
01:19:51.400 --> 01:19:53.930
On April 28th, 2004,

1671
01:19:53.930 --> 01:19:58.300
when CBS 60 Minutes aired the shocking photos of Abu Ghraib,

1672
01:19:58.300 --> 01:20:01.720
Donald Rumsfeld immediately resorted to the cover-up

1673
01:20:01.720 --> 01:20:03.750
readied by the Pentagon.

1674
01:20:03.750 --> 01:20:06.350
He cited General Taguba\'s investigation,

1675
01:20:06.350 --> 01:20:09.150
announced that nine MPs would be court-martialed,

1676
01:20:09.150 --> 01:20:10.470
and that General Karpinski

1677
01:20:10.470 --> 01:20:13.050
had been demoted to the rank of Colonel.

1678
01:20:13.050 --> 01:20:16.170
What he didn\'t know was that his lie under oath

1679
01:20:16.170 --> 01:20:18.353
would open a Pandora\'s box.

1680
01:20:20.600 --> 01:20:22.250
I\'ll ask our witness to rise.

1681
01:20:26.950 --> 01:20:31.780
The whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me God.

1682
01:20:31.780 --> 01:20:33.880 line:15%
Part of what we believe in

1683
01:20:33.880 --> 01:20:37.810 line:15%
is making sure that when wrongdoing or scandal do occur

1684
01:20:37.810 --> 01:20:39.600
that they are not covered up,

1685
01:20:39.600 --> 01:20:42.320
but they are exposed, they are investigated,

1686
01:20:42.320 --> 01:20:44.383
and the guilty are brought to justice.

1687
01:20:47.355 --> 01:20:49.423
What about the other abuses in Iraq,

1688
01:20:49.423 --> 01:20:50.996
what about the crimes and punishment,

1689
01:20:50.996 --> 01:20:52.802
are you investigating that?

1690
01:20:52.802 --> 01:20:56.100
What about the detentions, are you investigating?

1691
01:20:56.100 --> 01:20:58.850
(crowd chanting)

1692
01:21:03.430 --> 01:21:05.210
Abu Ghraib was the beginning of the opening

1693
01:21:05.210 --> 01:21:06.593 line:15%
of the floodgates,

1694
01:21:08.050 --> 01:21:10.530 line:15%
because when the pictures of Abu Ghraib came out

1695
01:21:10.530 --> 01:21:13.070 line:15%
the government immediately said there

1696
01:21:13.070 --> 01:21:14.690
is no policy of abuse here

1697
01:21:14.690 --> 01:21:16.220
That these were just a few rotten apples

1698
01:21:16.220 --> 01:21:17.310
at the bottom of the barrel.

1699
01:21:17.310 --> 01:21:20.668
And then I think people inside who knew more

1700
01:21:20.668 --> 01:21:24.390
wanted the world to know that that\'s not really true.

1701
01:21:24.390 --> 01:21:25.810
But they didn\'t speak out,

1702
01:21:25.810 --> 01:21:29.293
just gave the documents to the press.

1703
01:21:31.010 --> 01:21:32.333
You know what,

1704
01:21:32.333 --> 01:21:33.760
that\'s an interesting question, did people speak out?

1705
01:21:33.760 --> 01:21:35.980
You are right but for the most part

1706
01:21:35.980 --> 01:21:39.950
it\'s been a quiet rebellion inside,

1707
01:21:39.950 --> 01:21:42.290
and they wanted the story out,

1708
01:21:42.290 --> 01:21:44.723
but it\'s been a dangerous feeling atmosphere

1709
01:21:44.723 --> 01:21:47.204
to be openly dissenting,

1710
01:21:47.204 --> 01:21:50.500
because critics of these policies were painted

1711
01:21:50.500 --> 01:21:54.490
as unpatriotic or soft on terrorism,

1712
01:21:54.490 --> 01:21:56.120
so it\'s been a complicated thing

1713
01:21:57.098 --> 01:21:58.740
to oppose in this country politically.

1714
01:21:58.740 --> 01:22:00.420
So yes, I believe that there was

1715
01:22:00.420 --> 01:22:05.000 line:15%
an element of fear that permeated the institution,

1716
01:22:05.000 --> 01:22:09.480 line:15%
that causes us to not do what we have to do

1717
01:22:09.480 --> 01:22:13.485
as most senior leaders to take care of our soldiers.

1718
01:22:13.485 --> 01:22:14.683
And to stand up to say stop.

1719
01:22:14.683 --> 01:22:17.480
Just to stand up at the right times

1720
01:22:17.480 --> 01:22:20.210
to do what\'s right, yes.

1721
01:22:20.210 --> 01:22:21.090
But will you assume

1722
01:22:21.090 --> 01:22:22.480
a part of responsibility?

1723
01:22:22.480 --> 01:22:25.520
Of course you have to, no question,

1724
01:22:25.520 --> 01:22:27.920
some of that occurred under my command,

1725
01:22:27.920 --> 01:22:30.580
General Mamoush was killed under my command,

1726
01:22:30.580 --> 01:22:32.680
the use of dogs occurred under my command.

1727
01:22:34.167 --> 01:22:35.363
Stress positions?

1728
01:22:35.363 --> 01:22:36.950
Stress positions were used.

1729
01:22:36.950 --> 01:22:41.240
Unequivocally, I agree that we tortured people,

1730
01:22:41.240 --> 01:22:42.453
that we abused people,

1731
01:22:43.820 --> 01:22:46.480
and this will forever remain

1732
01:22:46.480 --> 01:22:48.930
a strategic defeat for our country,

1733
01:22:48.930 --> 01:22:53.930
and it will be extremely difficult for us

1734
01:22:53.970 --> 01:22:56.260
to re-establish ourselves

1735
01:22:56.260 --> 01:22:59.381
with the moral authority that we had before we went

1736
01:22:59.381 --> 01:23:02.403
away from the Geneva Conventions.

1737
01:23:11.800 --> 01:23:13.503
Fear can unite,

1738
01:23:14.760 --> 01:23:17.513
but it can unite in a very bad way.

1739
01:23:19.800 --> 01:23:21.730
And the best example of that

1740
01:23:21.730 --> 01:23:23.433
is what happened with the Nazis.

1741
01:23:26.180 --> 01:23:30.333
Fear of Jews, fear of gypsies, fear of everything.

1742
01:23:31.390 --> 01:23:32.850
It can bring people together

1743
01:23:32.850 --> 01:23:34.823
but it can be very ugly.

1744
01:23:36.700 --> 01:23:39.170
Its painful as an American citizen,

1745
01:23:39.170 --> 01:23:42.310
I travel a lot overseas

1746
01:23:44.421 --> 01:23:48.140
and I hear what people think of us now,

1747
01:23:49.060 --> 01:23:51.713
and that is painful.

1748
01:23:53.260 --> 01:23:54.880
All because of a few ideologues

1749
01:23:54.880 --> 01:23:57.150
wanted to act like cowboys,

1750
01:23:57.150 --> 01:24:00.010
that is not this country and I reject that.

1751
01:24:00.010 --> 01:24:03.200
The fact that we treated prisoners inhumanely

1752
01:24:03.200 --> 01:24:06.250
in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo and in other places,

1753
01:24:06.250 --> 01:24:08.240
we made a permanent historical stain

1754
01:24:08.240 --> 01:24:12.280
on the record of our country.

1755
01:24:12.280 --> 01:24:14.610
And so you\'ve got all these innocent people

1756
01:24:14.610 --> 01:24:17.471
in Abu Ghraib being treated this way,

1757
01:24:17.471 --> 01:24:19.650
and you expect them to go home

1758
01:24:19.650 --> 01:24:21.750
and be your friend afterwards.

1759
01:24:21.750 --> 01:24:23.400
I\'m sorry, it doesn\'t happen that way,

1760
01:24:23.400 --> 01:24:27.240
they become insurgents, they become terrorists or whatever.

1761
01:24:27.240 --> 01:24:30.433
And we did that, we did that to ourselves in Iraq.

1762
01:24:31.270 --> 01:24:34.320
My disappointment in the military system

1763
01:24:34.320 --> 01:24:37.106
in the Pentagon and what they\'ve done to soldiers and to me

1764
01:24:37.106 --> 01:24:40.950
is so profound I never ever imagined

1765
01:24:40.950 --> 01:24:44.350
that I would reach this point in my life, I never.

1766
01:24:44.350 --> 01:24:45.190
There is no question about it that

1767
01:24:45.190 --> 01:24:47.650
there\'s been war crimes committed.

1768
01:24:47.650 --> 01:24:51.410
At this point, we still don\'t know,

1769
01:24:51.410 --> 01:24:53.872
and we still have not held accountable

1770
01:24:53.872 --> 01:24:56.340
those that took us down this path.

1771
01:24:59.439 --> 01:25:02.439
(suspenseful music)