WEBVTT

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A treasure hunt, quote-unquote,

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is sometimes the objective

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even more than finding
the treasure itself.

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One of the most exciting things about
searching for ships,

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is being able to say today:
\"I said it was there\".

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When I wanted to search for the ship
someone probably said:

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\"These lunatics want to search for
a ship, and are willing to invest...\"

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The trouble is that we found it.

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That\'s the problem:
we found the ship.

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When you decide to act, to do things
in this beloved country of ours

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you have to expect criticism, man.

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You already know where you are.

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Here, in Chile,

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in order to stay out of trouble,

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you shouldn\'t do anything.

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Nothing at all!

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You should just stay seated

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and nothing will happen.
You won\'t be in anyone\'s way.

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But...

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... doing things is for those
who are brave of heart.

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Excuse me.

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What you see here are five volumes
of original documents,

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that are zealously kept in the
Chilean National Archives,

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and they tell the story
of the Oriflama shipwreck.

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It set sail from Cádiz in
February 1770,

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and sank with very valuable merchandise.

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The historical value of this shipwreck,
consists of the following:

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the Oriflama was to sail directly
from Cádiz to Callao.

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Everything that arrived to Lima, in this
case, was of sybaritic luxury.

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Imagine the wealth the Viceroyalty had at that time,
when a procession of the Virgin took place,

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they would pave the route
where the Virgin would pass,

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...pave the streets with bars of silver.

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This makes the Oriflama\'s shipwreck,

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and the conservation quality
of the objects on board,

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an array of goods that has
never been seen before.

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For example, here it says \'tisúes\',
which was a very delicate fabric.

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\"Brocatos\", gold-tipped sabers.

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Lists of silver and silks.

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Flower dress cuts with
golden lining.

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Gold-tipped \"Chupa\" cuts.

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The \"Chupa\" was a military uniform.

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There were fine lace,

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silver and golden ribbons,

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velvet ribbons, more silver.

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Velvet.

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38 pieces of assorted \"espoliles\"

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13 white, 6 blue, 5 yellow,
2 orange, 2 purple.

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\"Tercianelas\"...

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You see, there are terms here that
we don\'t understand.

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These letters were directly addressed
to the Viceroy of Perú,

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reporting on the attempts

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to rescue the crystalware
from the Oriflama.

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I\'m Mario Guisande Pelic,

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from Magallanes,

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70 years old.

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I\'m a naval historian.

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I am a member of the Naval History Academy
for Chile, Ecuador and Perú.

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It was called a \"registered vessel\".

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A \"registered vessel\" was a ship that set sail
with all its merchandise accounted for,

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let\'s say on paper, on cargo manifests.

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And it could not stop anywhere,

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because of the Crown\'s fear of looting
and that part of the cargo would be lost.

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Therefore, it had a port of departure
and a port of arrival.

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What occured was that the Oriflama
succumbed to a terrible epidemic

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and les than 30 crewmen
were in any condition to haul a sail

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and they could only access the first
crow\'s nest, on the main yard.

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They couldn\'t climb any higher
due to the weakened and sickly state

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in which they found themselves.

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As a consequence, they were not
able to harness the upper sails

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and hoist the smaller sails to
the top of the masts,

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with which a ship steers through a storm.

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Thus, at the moment the Oriflama sank,

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it took wind towards the shore

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with its sails unfurled.

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And the collision was so terrible

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that the three masts were cut
flush...

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and they fell.

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The people who were sick,
in their bunks

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below both decks,

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those people died, all of them.

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There was no chance of saving them.

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The locals saw the wreckage
at about 10AM in the morning,

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when it collided; near midday,

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until the ship went totally underwater,
at 8PM that night.

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So, during that time, they saw how all
those people died.

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It was a tragedy because no one was saved.

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The only survivor arrived to shore
inside a boat

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and it was one of the dogs
aboard the ship.

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The register vessel was stocked, more
or less, with fine merchandise

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for two whole years.

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This wreckage brought economic ruin
to a lot of people in Lima,

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Who people lost it all:

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crystalware, 1,400 crates of the King\'s
finest crystalware;

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silk fabrics embroidered with gold.
Imagine what that costs today!

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This doesn\'t mean that Oriflama
brought gold ingots

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or gold coins.

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It brought merchandise, and those
goods were very valuable.

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It was very well documented.

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And with the information that appeared in
those documents, in December 1998

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I went to La Trinchera beach,

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and found that it was, undoubtedly,
the place where the Oriflama had sunk

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because it matched the description that
the Spaniards had made of the place

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in the year 1770.

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That\'s when the adventure began.

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When the idea of searching for
this sunken ship began,

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it was an adventure, a challenge,

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something entertaining...

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a story.

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The very idea of searching for a ship,
of that size, sunk so many years ago,

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when we knew there had been a series of
other attempts to find it,

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and that they all had failed,

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would mean a significant amount of
time and significant resources.

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I partnered with two people...

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... a geologist and a marine biologist,
the Martinez brothers,

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and they brought a North American partner,
named Bud Eisler.

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Bud Eisler brought,
from the United States,

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a proton magnetometer.

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We spent two summers on that job,
covering 2,000 meters

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criss-crossing the water,

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searching for the Oriflama.

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But the Oriflama never appeared.

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We didn\'t understand it at all. We\'d say:

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\"But how? It should be here. It can\'t be
further out into the water.

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It should be here.\"

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We would say \"Well, if it isn\'t here,
then something happened,

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around here, around this site,

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and the ship must be inland,
but it has to be here.\"

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\"We know no one has removed it.\"

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So we placed the magnetometer on a
sledge made of plastic tubes.

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We began to search, and suddenly, one day
we were saving data onto the computer

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and there was a sudden spike...

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on the screen.

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And Edmundo said: \"Golly, the ship!\"
and I said: \"What?\"

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It was Oriflama.

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Our Oriflama.

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We also found some wood, that after
analyzing it in Cuba,

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turned out to be from a tree called
Silver Fir or Spruce tree,

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that is found in the south of France.
This was a French ship, after all,

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which had been made in the port of
Toulon, southern France.

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So things began to make sense.

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With that piece, we invoked the
Simple Adverse Possession rights

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of the ship and its cargo, in a
court in Curepto.

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And finally, the court granted me the
the ownership of Oriflama

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and I transferred it to our company,
Oriflama S.A.

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We are the legal owners

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of the cargo and of the vessel.

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We\'ve marked point number 2

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and we\'re going to install the first
cylinder of the tunnel there,

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that should reach the ship at 9.3
meters below the ground.

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We are going down that tube,
to reach the bottom

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and try to recover a sample of the
dark barrier that\'s blocking the way.

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Goodbye!

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Finally, we ended up seeing the ship
through the video cameras.

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Well, the image is quite blurry but
you can tell that there\'s wood.

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It\'s irregular, it has damage,
common in wood.

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That was very beautiful.

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Of the artifacts recovered from the
excavation, we found:

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pepper, pieces of glass, paper, gunpowder.

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There was wood in perfect condition,

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as if it never had been in the sea.

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Oriflama was under the shore and was
buried 9 meters deep.

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Whatever was salvaged there could have
only been the Oriflama.

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Now I\'ll show a part...

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of our beloved Museum of Curepto.

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Here you can see our famous Puma.

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A rock.

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A trumpet.

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Several objects, here we have
a gramophone.

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A wicker suitcase.

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There is Ferrari\'s horse,
on the National Emblem.

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That was made by the British.
They didn\'t even know what a Huemúl was.

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Petrified...

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sea shells.

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This is a bomb.

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This would create mayhem,

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in a 100 meter radius.

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They contacted me in the year...

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2003.

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And they asked if it was possible

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for the Museum of Curepto,
the Religious Historical Museum,

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to be the custodian of some objects
that were salvaged from the Oriflama.

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And I just couldn\'t say no.

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They were offering me this opportunity!

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And it was a priviledge to have it,
here with us.

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I immediately said \"yes\".

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So he said: \"Don\'t worry José,
we\'ll bring the objects in a glass case.\"

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But you know what...

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that when those objects arrived...

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something very odd happened.

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The second day we had them here,
you couldn\'t come into the Museum:

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there was an awful smell of rotting meat,

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that none of us could bare.

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We came to the conclusion, that Oriflama
was truly a graveyard.

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So what we did was say:
\"Let\'s ask the Priest to bless it,

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because this can\'t be.\"

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And the funny thing is that
he didn\'t believe us either!

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Father Letelier didn\'t believe a word!

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I said \"Father, please, come, come.\"

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So he came in and said:
\"Ugh... what do you have in here, guys?\"

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\"Don\'t start blaming the Puma,\" we said!
But it was really foul!

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We held this...

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little,

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tiny mass.

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He blessed everything.

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And you know, after an hour
it vanished.

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There was no smell left.

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None, none at all.

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It was gone, it left.

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So the priest said, of course:

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\"All those souls that are in there,
they are all trapped inside the ship\".

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That was the smell...

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of putrefaction.

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There are some coins, but
they are not worth much.

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We also have pieces of ceramics,

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crystalware,

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pieces of wood as well,
from the ship, with resin.

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They gave me a bit of pepper,
in that jar over there.

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If you crush one,

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in your hand, like that,

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and smell the pepper it\'s like...

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perfect for seasoning some pork chops!

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Nothing happened to it!

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Nothing, my friend! Nothing at all!

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The vessel and the cargo that the
Oriflama is supposed to have...

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is not considered a treasure in Chile.

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It\'s a Archaeological Monument.

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It\'s protected by the National
Monuments Law, hence,

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is not subject to the same kind of discussions
as say, treasure hunting or adventure.

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Plainly, it\'s a cultural good

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of the State,

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and has the Archaeological Monument title.

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This first statement is very important.
There is no other interpretation.

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The Court sentence had, in fact,
confirmed that they were owners,

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but in the end that sentence is
worthless because...

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the National Treasury, via a decision
made by the National Defense Council,

00:20:41.555 --> 00:20:47.410
informed the National Monuments Council
that the sentence that gave the ownership

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to Oriflama S.A. and its remains, could
not be held against the State,

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since the State was never summoned, never
duly noted. It wasn\'t a part of the trial.

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We never foresaw that certain
entities would take a stance,

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such as the State, the
National Monuments Council,

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and that after finding the ship

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they would come up with this story:
that the ship now belongs to the State,

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and that there are problems
with unearthing it.

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We couldn\'t reach a reasonable
agreement, for a very long time.

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The owners weren\'t the ones
with the flag,

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nor were the owners or builders of
the ship from 1770.

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It was the State.

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The decree says that a
Historical Monument is

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every trace of human existence
to be found in the bottom of lakes,

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rivers or seabeds,

00:21:46.682 --> 00:21:50.212
in interior bodies of waters,
or in territorial sea.

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Anything summerged there,
for over 50 years,

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will be considered a
Historical Monument.

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50 years.

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This is based on an international
norm that states 100 years.

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So this is a Chilean adaptation,

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because our history is shorter.

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Underwater Cultural Heritage (or UCH)
is a concept that is mostly

00:22:16.523 --> 00:22:18.519
defined by legal criteria,

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and that can be subjected to
scientific, archaeological research,

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So from that point of view,
there is a wide spectrum.

00:22:27.949 --> 00:22:30.929
It includes shipwrecks,

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old seaport infrastructure,

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of military,

00:22:36.099 --> 00:22:37.779
and commercial use.

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Even underwater prehistoric sites,

00:22:40.349 --> 00:22:43.857
can be considered as part of
Underwater Cultural Heritage.

00:22:48.189 --> 00:22:53.699
Chile is a country with a long continental
coast, over 4,200 kilometers,

00:22:54.249 --> 00:22:56.869
and with thousands of kilometers
in island territories.

00:22:56.869 --> 00:23:00.319
There are large passages like the Magallanes
Straight or Cabo de Hornos,

00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:03.319
that were used actively by sailing vessels,

00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:07.189
that are dangerous waters and
potential places for shipwrecks.

00:23:07.189 --> 00:23:11.219
So, by general consensus,
we\'re talking about...

00:23:11.219 --> 00:23:14.379
2,000 or more shipwrecks,
along the coasts of Chile.

00:23:18.186 --> 00:23:22.716
There are certain spots where people
often remove things from the sea

00:23:22.716 --> 00:23:24.166
and sell them as junk.

00:23:24.166 --> 00:23:27.466
Other plundering is related
to recreational diving,

00:23:27.466 --> 00:23:32.121
or done by divers linked
to the Armed Forces,

00:23:32.121 --> 00:23:35.403
which include certain cases
that are very sensitive from the viewpoint

00:23:35.403 --> 00:23:39.903
that some places are war graves,
visited as a kind of ritual.

00:23:39.903 --> 00:23:42.573
The Esmeralda case, the
Blindado Encalada case,

00:23:42.573 --> 00:23:45.983
are complicated because they
contain the remains

00:23:45.983 --> 00:23:49.803
of soldiers that died fighting
there... in combat.

00:23:49.803 --> 00:23:53.583
You can clearly see bones. The human bones
are lying on the seabed

00:23:53.583 --> 00:23:55.561
for anyone to see and take when diving.

00:23:58.066 --> 00:24:01.886
The Blanco Encalada is the first ship
sunk by a torpedo, in Chile.

00:24:03.071 --> 00:24:05.841
Torpedoes were a new technology.

00:24:06.348 --> 00:24:08.168
I think that that was what
was most astonishing.

00:24:08.621 --> 00:24:11.838
In those days, launching a torpedo
in Chile

00:24:11.838 --> 00:24:14.181
is like shooting a laser beam
today or something.

00:24:14.181 --> 00:24:16.191
They didn\'t know if it would work.

00:24:16.191 --> 00:24:17.321
And so,

00:24:17.321 --> 00:24:20.611
first torpedo, second torpedo
and the Blanco sunk.

00:24:20.611 --> 00:24:23.928
Indeed, it\'s the first ship in Chile

00:24:23.928 --> 00:24:26.728
that, during a Civil War, was hit by a
torpedo.

00:24:33.837 --> 00:24:37.885
The Blanco Encalada has been a
landmark case for us

00:24:37.885 --> 00:24:43.062
because it has been looted and plunderend

00:24:43.062 --> 00:24:44.995
over several years.

00:24:44.995 --> 00:24:48.514
The Blanco Encalada has many elements
in plain view of the diver,

00:24:48.514 --> 00:24:53.279
that are easy to take, lift and keep.

00:24:53.279 --> 00:24:56.413
It is sold and subsequently, leaves
the country.

00:25:45.866 --> 00:25:49.746
Thanks to a tip we received,

00:25:49.746 --> 00:25:52.463
we began collecting information,

00:25:52.463 --> 00:25:55.219
and indeed, they had a great deal...

00:25:56.986 --> 00:26:01.756
of fossils, as well as ammunition

00:26:01.756 --> 00:26:03.646
and turtle shells.

00:26:03.646 --> 00:26:10.686
The entire surroundings of the hotel
was decorated with these objects.

00:26:13.015 --> 00:26:20.165
There are forensic examinations being
made by the Navy in Valparaíso.

00:26:20.605 --> 00:26:23.461
It\'s very likely that they are

00:26:23.461 --> 00:26:25.281
from Blanco Encalada.

00:26:30.567 --> 00:26:35.037
The Esmeralda is in the same conditions,
in terms of protection.

00:26:35.037 --> 00:26:37.775
I mean that a diver could go under,

00:26:37.775 --> 00:26:40.605
and come out with a piece of wood
from Esmeralda,

00:26:40.605 --> 00:26:43.197
remaining bronze,

00:26:43.197 --> 00:26:45.775
dishes, vases,

00:26:45.775 --> 00:26:50.905
swords from that period, that still
are privately owned.

00:26:52.782 --> 00:26:56.697
The truth is that the experience of diving
in the Esmeralda is...

00:26:57.532 --> 00:26:59.172
absolutely breathtaking.

00:26:59.172 --> 00:27:03.782
It\'s like diving in a small buiding.
It is around 6 to 7 meters high,

00:27:03.782 --> 00:27:07.512
at least the structure standing
at the bottom.

00:27:07.512 --> 00:27:13.167
And of course, in your mind, you have
some context with everything you\'ve read

00:27:13.167 --> 00:27:15.172
about the battle, that has been very well
documented by the way,

00:27:15.172 --> 00:27:17.802
so in the end, you can begin to
relate everything.

00:27:17.802 --> 00:27:21.482
Visually, you have signs
of the spurs from the Huascar.

00:27:26.165 --> 00:27:29.023
Any looting of a heritage site,

00:27:29.883 --> 00:27:30.723
affects.

00:27:30.723 --> 00:27:31.920
Any country.

00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:40.060
And why does it continue? Because there
is always someone interested in buying.

00:27:40.060 --> 00:27:41.260
As long as there is a market,

00:27:42.250 --> 00:27:44.531
that urges on some issue of illegality,

00:27:44.531 --> 00:27:48.800
in the long term, it devastates
or undermines the UCH.

00:27:51.988 --> 00:27:56.138
Basically we regulate,
but we do not prohibit.

00:27:56.138 --> 00:27:59.725
If someone today wants to dive
in UCH, it will not be banned,

00:27:59.725 --> 00:28:02.792
but they should know
that you have to be careful

00:28:02.792 --> 00:28:05.506
avoid touching it,
and informing what you will do.

00:28:06.502 --> 00:28:07.652
They can dive,

00:28:07.652 --> 00:28:11.332
but if they detect UCH,
they have to be respectful.

00:28:15.569 --> 00:28:18.889
Finally, over the years,
the Comptroller agreed

00:28:18.889 --> 00:28:21.649
with the National Monuments Council
and said:

00:28:21.649 --> 00:28:23.889
\"This is an Archaeological Monument...

00:28:23.889 --> 00:28:26.689
therefore, if you need
or want to recover something...

00:28:26.689 --> 00:28:28.809
... you will have to ask the Council
for permission\".

00:28:28.809 --> 00:28:33.249
But to be able to do that, they
need to be a foreign scientific mission.

00:28:33.249 --> 00:28:35.169
\"And they will need
to make presentations…

00:28:35.169 --> 00:28:36.789
.. and I will have
to approve them.\"

00:28:36.789 --> 00:28:41.169
And so begins a long series of sessions
and presentations for the Oriflama,

00:28:41.169 --> 00:28:45.299
but they kept in mind that they were
compromising; literally trying to negotiate.

00:28:45.499 --> 00:28:47.176
Personally...

00:28:47.176 --> 00:28:49.103
I viewed this with great sympathy.

00:28:50.074 --> 00:28:53.419
I tried to guide this private initiative
and explain to them:

00:28:53.419 --> 00:28:58.909
\"Chilean legislation
does not allow you to dig...

00:28:58.909 --> 00:29:02.029
with the intention of selling things”;

00:29:02.029 --> 00:29:05.779
that what mattered here was
the work of a scientific nature,

00:29:05.779 --> 00:29:10.079
what mattered was not so much
extracting objects, rather studying a site.

00:29:18.403 --> 00:29:20.343
In scientific research,

00:29:20.343 --> 00:29:23.983
one has a question,
a reason to do research,

00:29:23.983 --> 00:29:28.591
which affects how you
are going to do to get data.

00:29:28.591 --> 00:29:31.475
Why must I unearth this ship?
To answer these questions.

00:29:31.940 --> 00:29:34.501
And obviously their interest,
was, in principle,

00:29:34.501 --> 00:29:37.130
a commercial one:
to obtain the treasure.

00:29:37.130 --> 00:29:40.340
So, over time, they came
up with different proposals

00:29:40.340 --> 00:29:43.100
that would be compatible,

00:29:43.100 --> 00:29:47.100
with the definition of what
an investigation is.

00:29:47.948 --> 00:29:51.777
In the end, they managed to have
a proposal...

00:29:51.777 --> 00:29:53.538
... which was relatively consistent.

00:29:53.538 --> 00:29:56.298
While it could be debated
in the academic world,

00:29:56.298 --> 00:29:59.517
one could say:
“OK, this project has character”

00:30:00.427 --> 00:30:03.144
I mean, it\'s not full of
blank sheets, you know?

00:30:03.144 --> 00:30:06.324
Everything worked, everything that...
matched.

00:30:09.156 --> 00:30:11.206
And here we can see the cofferdam.

00:30:17.983 --> 00:30:23.663
Initially, it was a great adventure,
a challenge... a treasure.

00:30:23.663 --> 00:30:27.743
But, as we moved forward,
studying and learning

00:30:27.743 --> 00:30:31.653
what the ship brought, what its
story was, what the significance was,

00:30:31.653 --> 00:30:35.843
what you desire most is
to leave something behind,

00:30:35.843 --> 00:30:38.912
after you are gone,
for future generations.

00:30:41.731 --> 00:30:43.812
That has another kind of value.

00:30:43.812 --> 00:30:47.232
A cultural value,
more than just a monetary value.

00:30:48.412 --> 00:30:53.714
We sought alliances with the University
of Northern Texas, in the United States,

00:30:53.714 --> 00:30:58.513
and we presented
a rescue project together.

00:31:00.935 --> 00:31:04.045
The scientific project consisted of

00:31:04.045 --> 00:31:07.825
finding out the reasons for the
death of the crew,

00:31:07.825 --> 00:31:11.025
because they all died
there, sick.

00:31:11.025 --> 00:31:17.335
We still expected to find inside
of the ship,

00:31:17.335 --> 00:31:18.835
in the wreckage under the sand,

00:31:18.835 --> 00:31:22.355
human remains, with their soft parts

00:31:22.355 --> 00:31:24.755
in suitable conditions for scientific
analysis.

00:31:24.755 --> 00:31:28.664
And also, learn how these ships
were built.

00:31:28.664 --> 00:31:30.575
What were the unions like,

00:31:30.575 --> 00:31:32.435
the type of wood that was used,

00:31:32.435 --> 00:31:35.095
the different structural parts
of the ship.

00:31:42.134 --> 00:31:47.974
Then there was a technical aspect which
defined how the ship was to be rescued;

00:31:47.974 --> 00:31:50.367
a cofferdam was going to be built,

00:31:50.367 --> 00:31:52.434
which is a wall with a steel bottom,

00:31:52.434 --> 00:31:55.311
inserted into the sand.

00:31:55.311 --> 00:31:56.894
This has huge dimensions

00:31:56.894 --> 00:32:00.205
But the point is that it makes,
based on sheet piles,

00:32:00.205 --> 00:32:02.444
a form of curtain,

00:32:02.444 --> 00:32:07.004
that prevents sand from caving over
into the excavation site later on.

00:32:07.004 --> 00:32:11.514
The ship is taken out, rescued, and then
the sheet piling is removed and

00:32:11.514 --> 00:32:12.340
the beach is restored
to its original form.

00:32:21.253 --> 00:32:24.126
The rescue of the Oriflama,
making a cofferdam,

00:32:24.126 --> 00:32:27.183
which is a huge engineering project,
has never been done in Chile.

00:32:27.183 --> 00:32:32.233
We were quoted $18 million USD,
now I\'m sure it\'s more.

00:32:32.233 --> 00:32:36.170
Mr. Cardoen said: \"I\'ll make a call
and get us $20 million...

00:32:36.840 --> 00:32:38.773
... I\'ll even pay them myself...

00:32:38.773 --> 00:32:42.273
... but I need to know they won\'t take
everything away from us.\"

00:32:47.719 --> 00:32:52.439
The knowledge of this reached me,

00:32:52.439 --> 00:32:54.839
I believe, through the newspaper,

00:32:54.839 --> 00:32:58.288
so I went to speak to the people
organizing this.

00:32:58.288 --> 00:33:01.669
I expressed my intention to
participate in this.

00:33:01.669 --> 00:33:05.444
I own, I believe, about 5% of the company.

00:33:05.444 --> 00:33:12.979
I contribute to the future preservation
of this ship.

00:33:12.979 --> 00:33:15.806
They were very happy
to be able to count on

00:33:15.806 --> 00:33:20.810
the experience that we have in
museology and preservation,

00:33:20.810 --> 00:33:24.740
and to provide them with support.

00:33:26.326 --> 00:33:27.726
A unit,

00:33:27.726 --> 00:33:30.195
that\'s preserved in the way
the Oriflama is,

00:33:30.195 --> 00:33:32.892
can tell thousands of stories.

00:33:32.892 --> 00:33:35.422
It\'s a time capsule.

00:33:36.968 --> 00:33:40.228
I went with them to a session.
I believed this was transparent.

00:33:40.228 --> 00:33:42.028
I went and gave them our stand.

00:33:42.028 --> 00:33:44.360
And, I told them the same thing
I\'m saying now:

00:33:44.360 --> 00:33:47.498
that this was a discussion that
even we, within the Council,

00:33:47.498 --> 00:33:49.058
had had many times.

00:33:49.058 --> 00:33:52.198
And that, as we arrived to
an understanding,

00:33:52.198 --> 00:33:55.886
I thought it was valid to
grant them permission.

00:33:55.886 --> 00:33:57.675
[And what was the result?]

00:33:57.675 --> 00:33:59.208
Negative.

00:33:59.208 --> 00:34:02.038
It is, as I said, incomprehensible

00:34:02.038 --> 00:34:06.158
to allow everything to rot and
degrade before someone examines it.

00:34:07.278 --> 00:34:09.318
Why not? Just because.

00:34:29.229 --> 00:34:31.641
I feel like I\'m being interrogated.

00:34:32.079 --> 00:34:34.689
[Why not extract the Oriflama?]

00:34:35.391 --> 00:34:37.661
Ok, straight to the tough questions.

00:34:37.661 --> 00:34:41.366
After the last permit application,
the Council determined

00:34:41.366 --> 00:34:44.793
that the research question

00:34:44.793 --> 00:34:45.623
did not...

00:34:45.623 --> 00:34:49.533
... did not justify the need for
an excavation towards the ship.

00:34:49.533 --> 00:34:51.574
There was the question of...

00:34:51.574 --> 00:34:55.294
... of finding the dead, the human
remains aboard the Oriflama.

00:34:56.558 --> 00:35:01.003
But most of the bodies that resurfaced
after the wreckage, when the ship crashed,

00:35:01.993 --> 00:35:07.368
were gathered and buried in a grave
at the local cemetery.

00:35:07.368 --> 00:35:08.388
Therefore,

00:35:08.388 --> 00:35:13.018
everything must answer the research question
and, if there is an easier way to answer it.

00:35:13.018 --> 00:35:17.438
Just imagine: retrieving the ship and
dry-docking it, digging, etc.

00:35:17.438 --> 00:35:22.242
when you can just dig on dry land,
without a diver, without all the fuss...

00:35:22.242 --> 00:35:24.015
... in a cementary, it\'s like...

00:35:24.598 --> 00:35:26.369
That\'s when the Council said \"No\".

00:35:26.369 --> 00:35:30.547
With that research question, that\'s
where things got settled...

00:35:30.547 --> 00:35:32.487
... on whether or not to grant permission.

00:35:32.817 --> 00:35:34.710
The Monuments Council has received

00:35:34.710 --> 00:35:38.444
excavation proposals to salvage
the Oriflama,

00:35:38.444 --> 00:35:39.997
several times over the years.

00:35:40.157 --> 00:35:44.627
They have determined that the project\'s
research is not justified or mature enough

00:35:44.627 --> 00:35:49.907
to carry out any rescue work and
subsequent enhancement.

00:36:04.267 --> 00:36:07.193
The issue is not about the Oriflama.

00:36:07.193 --> 00:36:11.747
It\'s about any shipwreck, any ship.
In the end, anything

00:36:11.747 --> 00:36:13.207
that remains underwater.

00:36:13.207 --> 00:36:17.107
Today it is not a financial issue either.
It\'s a matter of science

00:36:17.107 --> 00:36:19.737
not being ready enough to say:

00:36:19.737 --> 00:36:21.371
\"We unearthed it\" and voilá!

00:36:21.371 --> 00:36:25.307
\"We can leave it outside, it will be
fine, and we will be able to preserve it.\"

00:36:25.307 --> 00:36:28.077
Underwater preservation is
still in an early development phase.

00:36:28.077 --> 00:36:30.147
Retrieving an artifact now is saying:

00:36:30.147 --> 00:36:33.707
\"We are going to try our best to
preserve this artifact...

00:36:33.707 --> 00:36:36.997
... so that maybe in 20 or 50 years
our descendants can still see it\".

00:36:39.615 --> 00:36:44.534
After a shipwreck, when something sinks
to the bottom of the ocean,

00:36:44.534 --> 00:36:48.353
eventually there is a point
where the artifact

00:36:48.353 --> 00:36:51.105
and the environment around it
reach an equilibrium.

00:36:51.105 --> 00:36:54.093
The ocean floor sediments act
as a protective layer

00:36:54.093 --> 00:36:59.084
against natural corrosive elements,

00:36:59.084 --> 00:37:02.290
so the artifacts are, relatively,

00:37:02.290 --> 00:37:04.703
in balance or has
low corrosion levels.

00:37:04.703 --> 00:37:10.436
If you remove the artifact from the water,
into the oxygen, exposing it

00:37:10.436 --> 00:37:14.094
to any corrosive agents, such as bacteria
that consume everything

00:37:14.094 --> 00:37:16.190
eating away any organic material.

00:37:16.190 --> 00:37:19.651
So sometimes, the artifacts are just fine
where they are,

00:37:20.839 --> 00:37:24.315
and you must be very careful
when removing them,

00:37:24.315 --> 00:37:27.643
and only if you have the means
of preserving them correctly.

00:37:27.643 --> 00:37:31.773
That is also why UNESCO poses
that you should leave things where they are,

00:37:31.773 --> 00:37:34.932
because removing them now,
in addition to the cost,

00:37:34.932 --> 00:37:37.622
is irresponsible since we cannot predict
what will happen to them afterwards.

00:37:46.524 --> 00:37:48.484
An artifact of this nature,

00:37:48.484 --> 00:37:51.582
based on our interpretation
of historical documents

00:37:51.582 --> 00:37:53.354
and the Oriflama\'s cargo manifest,

00:37:53.354 --> 00:37:58.144
would mean a huge conservation effort
on behalf of the State...

00:37:58.144 --> 00:38:02.135
if the State were to recover it, or
grant permission for a research project

00:38:02.135 --> 00:38:06.334
that aimed to rescue and showcase the
value of some artifacts.

00:38:06.334 --> 00:38:07.674
With that understanding,

00:38:07.674 --> 00:38:10.744
in compliance with Chilean Law,
you could implement

00:38:10.744 --> 00:38:14.084
projects that partially or totally
salvaged some of these artifacts,

00:38:14.084 --> 00:38:16.384
depending on the strategy proposal,

00:38:16.384 --> 00:38:20.614
with prior consolidated and permanent
preservation processes.

00:38:21.006 --> 00:38:23.664
And that\'s when the problem arose,
they said:

00:38:23.664 --> 00:38:28.634
\"Well, once the ship is rescued, we will
build a museum for it...

00:38:28.634 --> 00:38:29.894
... it will be moved to a museum.\"

00:38:29.894 --> 00:38:31.417
However, in this case,

00:38:32.057 --> 00:38:34.552
the National Monuments Council\'s
question was:

00:38:34.552 --> 00:38:39.076
\"How will the conservation of this ship
be financed in the future?\"

00:38:42.057 --> 00:38:45.341
It is a management issue, because

00:38:45.341 --> 00:38:48.297
today we do have conservation technology.

00:38:48.297 --> 00:38:52.537
This country probably doesn\'t have them,
but we can acquire them.

00:38:52.537 --> 00:38:55.894
For instance, we have the ability to
start a worldwide project.

00:38:56.380 --> 00:38:59.238
Let\'s get the UN on board
with this project.

00:39:08.309 --> 00:39:12.309
Let me see if I can find one right here,
if you have a moment.

00:39:16.474 --> 00:39:22.414
This is four \"escudos\" of gold

00:39:22.414 --> 00:39:27.866
and it was minted in Chile, in Santiago,

00:39:27.866 --> 00:39:30.394
in 1750.

00:39:30.394 --> 00:39:32.533
And it has

00:39:32.533 --> 00:39:35.544
the image of the King

00:39:35.544 --> 00:39:37.644
Ferdinand VI

00:39:37.644 --> 00:39:39.064
on the piece.

00:39:39.064 --> 00:39:42.005
But unfortunately, a storm
sank the ship

00:39:42.005 --> 00:39:44.741
and the coin went to the bottom.

00:39:46.448 --> 00:39:48.228
All of the ships

00:39:48.228 --> 00:39:51.268
went by Havana, Cuba.

00:39:51.268 --> 00:39:55.068
That\'s where they were loaded,
and they received their supplies,

00:39:55.068 --> 00:39:58.368
so that they could make the trip back
to Cádiz.

00:39:58.368 --> 00:40:02.568
And they sank in the Florida Keys,
between Florida and The Bahamas...

00:40:02.568 --> 00:40:04.778
is where we get them.

00:40:13.611 --> 00:40:15.700
Your heart is pounding

00:40:15.700 --> 00:40:18.510
and the hair stands up on
the back of your neck,

00:40:18.510 --> 00:40:25.600
and it\'s the most thrilling excitement when
you get the glimpse of the gold or the silver in the water.

00:40:31.314 --> 00:40:35.498
In the United States it\'s highly
regulated, the shipwrecks.

00:40:35.498 --> 00:40:41.034
The State, where we recover the artifacts, gets
a percentage of everything we bring up.

00:40:41.034 --> 00:40:43.829
20% for the State and the government,

00:40:43.829 --> 00:40:45.619
80% for us.

00:40:45.619 --> 00:40:49.516
We pay the bills, 100% of the expense.

00:40:50.306 --> 00:40:53.884
So they want to build the best collection
and representations,

00:40:53.884 --> 00:40:59.014
so that historians and scholars can study them
50 or 100 years from now.

00:40:59.014 --> 00:41:01.924
So we try to cooperate as much as possible.

00:41:07.799 --> 00:41:09.289
So in Chile,

00:41:10.829 --> 00:41:12.651
the project that I\'m aware of

00:41:12.651 --> 00:41:14.282
is the Oriflama.

00:41:17.198 --> 00:41:19.986
I\'m very familiar with it, with
the history of that.

00:41:19.986 --> 00:41:25.124
It will be very interesting to see what
Chile finally decides to do

00:41:25.124 --> 00:41:27.404
with that project.

00:41:30.150 --> 00:41:32.912
Because what\'s interesting
about the Oriflama,

00:41:32.912 --> 00:41:36.780
is that you have a galleon that was
coming from Spain with those materials,

00:41:36.780 --> 00:41:40.915
and mostly what we work with are the
galleons trying to return to Spain.

00:41:40.915 --> 00:41:43.750
So it\'s two types of materials.

00:41:43.750 --> 00:41:49.594
And, with the Oriflama it would be interesting
to present that in a museum context of:

00:41:49.594 --> 00:41:52.155
\"This is what\'s coming on this side\"

00:41:52.155 --> 00:41:56.229
and then some of our shipwreck material
that shows what was going back.

00:41:56.229 --> 00:42:00.720
I just thought that would be an interesting
context, to show to the two sides,

00:42:00.720 --> 00:42:02.223
you know,

00:42:02.223 --> 00:42:06.894
the people migrating from the Old World
to the New World,

00:42:06.894 --> 00:42:11.010
how incredibly arduous that trip was, and...

00:42:11.795 --> 00:42:12.795
...you know...

00:42:13.729 --> 00:42:15.663
It was like going to the Moon!

00:42:15.663 --> 00:42:17.755
It\'s that kind of adventure.

00:42:31.061 --> 00:42:33.393
There are so many artifacts

00:42:33.393 --> 00:42:38.781
that they could be all over Chile;
however, we would like the museum to

00:42:38.781 --> 00:42:40.991
only and exclusively be in Curepto.

00:42:40.991 --> 00:42:45.531
This is a place that was
terribly devastated

00:42:45.531 --> 00:42:48.145
after the \"27F\" earthquake (in 2010).

00:42:48.145 --> 00:42:53.945
Curepto already faced unemployment issues
and lacked economic activity

00:42:53.945 --> 00:42:57.785
and the 27F earthquake was the
last nail in the coffin for Curepto.

00:43:02.739 --> 00:43:05.739
We\'ll have tourism.

00:43:05.739 --> 00:43:07.349
Why do I say that?

00:43:07.349 --> 00:43:12.534
Because anyone who wishes to see
what the Oriflama carried

00:43:12.534 --> 00:43:14.474
will have to come to Curepto.

00:43:15.024 --> 00:43:17.674
We would have two museums:

00:43:17.674 --> 00:43:21.494
one here in the city, and
the other in La Trinchera,

00:43:22.714 --> 00:43:24.844
where the ship and the cannons would be,

00:43:24.844 --> 00:43:28.338
and 75% of the artifacts

00:43:28.338 --> 00:43:30.801
aboard the Oriflama

00:43:30.801 --> 00:43:32.758
would remain here in the city museum.

00:43:32.758 --> 00:43:39.710
Unfortunately, the members of the
National Monuments Council

00:43:39.710 --> 00:43:41.880
lack a longterm vision.

00:43:42.902 --> 00:43:45.062
They simply don\'t see it.

00:43:45.062 --> 00:43:51.062
They don\'t care whether or not
this town has any tourism.

00:43:51.062 --> 00:43:52.782
It doesn\'t matter to them.

00:43:52.782 --> 00:43:55.441
They live in Santiago. That\'s all.

00:43:55.441 --> 00:43:57.760
And Santiago is not Chile.

00:43:58.781 --> 00:44:02.701
The truth of the matter is that,
on one hand

00:44:04.521 --> 00:44:07.663
the Oriflama\'s project managers

00:44:08.851 --> 00:44:13.459
see this as an investment opportunity,
to rescue these goods

00:44:13.459 --> 00:44:17.069
with cultural aspirations, and also
recover the costs implied.

00:44:17.069 --> 00:44:21.249
And on the other hand, the archaeologists
view them as treasure hunters.

00:44:21.249 --> 00:44:24.339
And in between those two options,
in that abyss,

00:44:24.339 --> 00:44:26.659
they have never reached an understanding.

00:44:26.659 --> 00:44:28.426
With this case, and others,

00:44:28.426 --> 00:44:32.849
the National Monuments Council does not
have a closed definitive stand.

00:44:32.849 --> 00:44:33.616
Meaning,

00:44:33.616 --> 00:44:38.450
if one wants to build a project that
justifies this matter well,

00:44:38.450 --> 00:44:42.719
coupled with a project that enhances
and displays the goods that come from it,

00:44:42.719 --> 00:44:46.165
something along the same lines of
Oriflama SA\'s last proposal,

00:44:46.165 --> 00:44:48.049
which is, to make a museum...

00:44:48.049 --> 00:44:52.319
Maybe turn it into something focused
on regional, local development

00:44:52.319 --> 00:44:55.199
which is an interesting possibility,

00:44:55.199 --> 00:45:00.379
the Council wouldn\'t have reasons to reject
it, as long as the project meets the standards.

00:45:00.379 --> 00:45:02.458
There is no kind of...

00:45:02.458 --> 00:45:03.349
... of ban,

00:45:03.349 --> 00:45:07.969
or a predefined stance that says: \"If its
from Oriflama, the Council will reject it\", not at all.

00:45:07.969 --> 00:45:09.629
The Council is a technical body
of the State.

00:45:09.629 --> 00:45:12.451
During these last years it has deemed

00:45:12.451 --> 00:45:16.935
that the request has not met the
requirements that this matter shoud have,

00:45:16.935 --> 00:45:21.199
under the technical and scientific
supervision of the Council.

00:45:21.199 --> 00:45:23.089
That\'s all.

00:45:34.643 --> 00:45:37.004
That is an ongoing debate,

00:45:37.004 --> 00:45:40.719
because the money and the funds

00:45:40.719 --> 00:45:43.268
are raised privately.

00:45:43.268 --> 00:45:47.230
The citizen\'s taxes are not used

00:45:47.230 --> 00:45:49.063
to pursue this history.

00:45:49.063 --> 00:45:51.195
So we take the risk

00:45:51.195 --> 00:45:53.023
and we get a reward,

00:45:53.023 --> 00:45:54.693
if we are successful.

00:45:54.693 --> 00:45:56.943
And so there is a good balance there.

00:45:56.943 --> 00:45:59.493
We employ archaeologists,

00:45:59.493 --> 00:46:03.663
I contribute things to museums,
for displays or donations.

00:46:03.663 --> 00:46:06.398
Sometimes, if you make things too restricted,

00:46:06.398 --> 00:46:09.693
people won\'t report the things
that they find,

00:46:09.693 --> 00:46:13.783
so it\'s better to encourage the reporting

00:46:13.783 --> 00:46:19.622
so you cut down on the possibility
of smuggling or the black market.

00:46:27.942 --> 00:46:32.023
There are other jurisdictions
and legislations in the world,

00:46:32.023 --> 00:46:34.186
that have sought a middle way,

00:46:34.186 --> 00:46:36.122
and I agree with them,

00:46:36.122 --> 00:46:39.362
where there are some rewards...

00:46:39.362 --> 00:46:42.804
The State rewards the finder,

00:46:42.804 --> 00:46:45.542
who is capable of retrieving the pieces
under a series of conditions,

00:46:45.542 --> 00:46:50.077
but permission is granted if they prove
that they can do it successfully,

00:46:50.077 --> 00:46:52.722
and they are compensated for the
expenses involved.

00:46:52.722 --> 00:46:54.602
This is different

00:46:54.602 --> 00:46:57.342
than allowing the marketing or
retrieval of goods.

00:46:57.342 --> 00:46:59.645
They are not paid in goods, rather

00:46:59.645 --> 00:47:04.072
it\'s understood that they are generating
benefits to the heritage of their country.

00:47:08.288 --> 00:47:12.368
I believe that\'s the way. Probably everything
we\'ve discussed about the Oriflama case

00:47:12.368 --> 00:47:15.210
wouldn\'t happen if that possibility was available.

00:47:17.932 --> 00:47:21.220
They must find a smart way of
working together

00:47:21.220 --> 00:47:26.222
instead of waiting and wearing down,
spending money in courts.

00:47:26.222 --> 00:47:29.665
I would add that the only ones who have
won in this case have been the lawyers

00:47:29.665 --> 00:47:32.067
who have worked on the Oriflama.

00:47:32.923 --> 00:47:36.214
I would love it if they reach an agreement,

00:47:36.214 --> 00:47:39.250
defining the terms in which they
will do this

00:47:39.250 --> 00:47:43.837
and together, rescue and investigate
what is down there,

00:47:43.837 --> 00:47:46.313
and discover if there really is
something there or not.

00:47:46.313 --> 00:47:49.133
And if there is, I think that
that would be great.

00:47:57.379 --> 00:48:01.579
Of course it would be interesting,
if you use the right question.

00:48:01.579 --> 00:48:04.673
It may be helpful to answer another
kind of question

00:48:04.673 --> 00:48:10.120
non-related to the ship itself, but to
the conservation processes

00:48:10.120 --> 00:48:12.839
and if there are those kind of
capabilities in Chile.

00:48:13.729 --> 00:48:17.169
There could be another kind of discussion.

00:48:25.676 --> 00:48:29.206
The first question I would ask in the
Oriflama case is:

00:48:31.605 --> 00:48:33.506
how much of the ship is left?

00:48:42.601 --> 00:48:47.401
It hardly may have survived the
pounding of the waves

00:48:47.401 --> 00:48:49.734
after crashing into the beach.

00:48:49.734 --> 00:48:52.081
There is no certainty that there is
a structure to be rescued.

00:48:52.908 --> 00:48:57.507
Now, why do they insist that there is
treasure there... I don\'t know.

00:48:57.507 --> 00:49:00.267
I don\'t have an explanation for that.

00:49:16.199 --> 00:49:22.234
Less than 5% of the goods were rescued
from Oriflama; 95% is in the ship,

00:49:22.234 --> 00:49:24.769
because what reached the shore
were the sides,

00:49:24.769 --> 00:49:27.801
so the three ship decks are stacked
on top of one another

00:49:27.801 --> 00:49:30.600
and the cargo is perfectly
preserved in there.

00:49:38.217 --> 00:49:43.167
We don\'t want to die
knowing this remains under the sand.

00:49:43.167 --> 00:49:45.732
It doesn\'t make any sense, it\'s absurd.

00:49:49.982 --> 00:49:52.920
If we had to choose shipwrecks
that should be rescued,

00:49:52.920 --> 00:49:55.622
I don\'t think the Oriflama would even
be among the \"top ten\".

00:49:55.622 --> 00:49:57.546
The story is interesting,

00:49:57.546 --> 00:50:00.766
but the ship\'s structure might not even
be in conditions to be retrieved

00:50:00.766 --> 00:50:03.516
and put in a museum.

00:50:03.516 --> 00:50:05.836
There isn\'t much more to it.

00:50:17.651 --> 00:50:18.831
Look...

00:50:18.831 --> 00:50:21.011
Everyone wants to see the Oriflama.

00:50:22.518 --> 00:50:24.158
Well, I call it...

00:50:24.681 --> 00:50:25.681
the Boringflama,

00:50:26.273 --> 00:50:27.423
because...

00:50:27.864 --> 00:50:29.774
... we\'re tired of fighting.

00:50:36.205 --> 00:50:39.378
I don\'t think I\'ll be able to see

00:50:39.978 --> 00:50:42.345
the Oriflama above the water

00:50:42.345 --> 00:50:43.898
during my lifetime.

00:50:44.628 --> 00:50:47.327
But others will come.