00:00:17.450 --> 00:00:19.200
- Hey, you better finish your
little Cafe Latte, there.

00:00:19.200 --> 00:00:20.850
They'll never let
you in with it.

00:00:20.850 --> 00:00:21.780
- Why not?

00:00:21.780 --> 00:00:24.510
- Because they don't allow
outside drinks into the movie.

00:00:24.510 --> 00:00:26.856
- Well, we'll just see if we
can't get around that.

00:00:26.856 --> 00:00:30.840
(LAUGHTER)

00:00:30.840 --> 00:00:31.120
- Pardon me.

00:00:31.120 --> 00:00:31.470
- Pardon me.

00:00:31.470 --> 00:00:33.960
- Pardon me. 'Scuse us.

00:00:33.960 --> 00:00:34.292
- Oh!

00:00:34.292 --> 00:00:34.956
AHHH!

00:00:34.956 --> 00:00:36.206
Coffee!

00:00:43.430 --> 00:00:45.700
- And then there is
this tonight.

00:00:45.700 --> 00:00:48.270
In Albuquerque, and 81-year-old
woman has been

00:00:48.270 --> 00:00:52.910
awarded $2.9 million after she
sued McDonald's, claiming

00:00:52.910 --> 00:00:54.820
their coffee was too hot.

00:00:54.820 --> 00:00:58.130
It seems she was holding a cup
between her legs while

00:00:58.130 --> 00:00:58.380
driving.

00:00:58.380 --> 00:00:59.470
- I spoke to a lawyer.

00:00:59.470 --> 00:01:02.070
We're suing for millions.

00:01:02.070 --> 00:01:03.300
- Suing?

00:01:03.300 --> 00:01:03.940
What for?

00:01:03.940 --> 00:01:05.220
- The coffee was too hot.

00:01:05.220 --> 00:01:10.500
(LAUGHTER)

00:01:10.500 --> 00:01:13.240
- I've been thinking of quitting
work here and suing

00:01:13.240 --> 00:01:15.780
big companies for a
living instead.

00:01:15.780 --> 00:01:19.160
Suing has become a popular
American pastime, and I'd like

00:01:19.160 --> 00:01:21.020
to get in on some of
that easy money.

00:01:21.020 --> 00:01:23.680
- A college student sued his
college because his roommate

00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:25.290
partied too much.

00:01:25.290 --> 00:01:28.650
A Florida man sued because
he got a bad haircut.

00:01:28.650 --> 00:01:30.940
Of course, many of these
lawsuits fail,

00:01:30.940 --> 00:01:33.180
but you might win.

00:01:33.180 --> 00:01:35.960
Stella Liebeck did, because
of a cup of coffee.

00:01:43.690 --> 00:01:45.990
- Every minute they waste on
this frivolous lawsuit,

00:01:45.990 --> 00:01:49.050
they're not able to waste on
other frivolous lawsuits.

00:01:49.050 --> 00:01:52.740
Like, "oh, my coffee was
too hot." It's coffee!

00:01:52.740 --> 00:01:54.670
- The woman, she purchased
the coffee, and she

00:01:54.670 --> 00:01:55.560
spilled it on herself.

00:01:55.560 --> 00:01:58.250
I mean, it wasn't like the
McDonald's employee took the

00:01:58.250 --> 00:01:59.285
coffee and threw it on her.

00:01:59.285 --> 00:02:02.070
Now that in itself, then she
would have had a lawsuit.

00:02:02.070 --> 00:02:04.990
- It's just people just are
greedy and want money, and

00:02:04.990 --> 00:02:06.330
they'll do anything to get it.

00:02:09.449 --> 00:02:13.420
- I think many Americans have
a fundamentally wrong

00:02:13.420 --> 00:02:15.960
perception of the civil
justice system.

00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:17.950
They think that the
system is flooded

00:02:17.950 --> 00:02:19.400
with frivolous lawsuits.

00:02:19.400 --> 00:02:21.380
- Jackpot justice.

00:02:21.380 --> 00:02:23.240
- Predatory trial lawyers
at it again.

00:02:23.240 --> 00:02:25.780
- Junk lawsuits over frivolous
injuries...

00:02:25.780 --> 00:02:27.810
- "Lawsuit lottery", and
"jackpot justice", and

00:02:27.810 --> 00:02:31.410
"frivolous lawsuits"; these were
bumper sticker phrases

00:02:31.410 --> 00:02:36.030
that were easy to market and use
to move public sentiment

00:02:36.030 --> 00:02:38.800
away from a strong civil
justice system.

00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:43.240
- The whole issue is industry
does not want the public,

00:02:43.240 --> 00:02:45.610
generally, to have access
to the courts.

00:02:45.610 --> 00:02:49.060
So there's all of these devices
and methods that

00:02:49.060 --> 00:02:51.000
business has used to keep

00:02:51.000 --> 00:02:53.128
consumers out of the courtroom.

00:03:07.610 --> 00:03:10.630
- My mother, at 79,
was very active.

00:03:10.630 --> 00:03:11.750
She drove.

00:03:11.750 --> 00:03:13.670
She drove well.

00:03:13.670 --> 00:03:15.720
She very seldom dropped
anything.

00:03:15.720 --> 00:03:19.370
She very seldom spilled
anything.

00:03:19.370 --> 00:03:26.150
And so that for her age, at 79
years old, I thought she was

00:03:26.150 --> 00:03:27.580
remarkable.

00:03:27.580 --> 00:03:30.653
And she had been working
full-time, just about until

00:03:30.653 --> 00:03:31.903
about a week before
this all happened.

00:03:45.580 --> 00:03:47.410
- My name is Charles Allen.

00:03:47.410 --> 00:03:50.600
I'd like to introduce my wife
Judy and her mother, Stella

00:03:50.600 --> 00:03:53.920
Liebeck, the woman who was
burned by a cup of scalding

00:03:53.920 --> 00:03:56.900
hot McDonald's coffee
three years ago.

00:03:56.900 --> 00:04:00.000
She cannot speak due to a
confidentiality agreement that

00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:04.580
she signed, but Judy and I
have no such agreement.

00:04:04.580 --> 00:04:10.640
- I am just astounded at how
many people are aware of this

00:04:10.640 --> 00:04:16.209
case and how many people have a
distorted view of the case.

00:04:16.209 --> 00:04:18.905
It doesn't matter where I
am or who I speak to.

00:04:18.905 --> 00:04:21.170
They're, "Oh, yeah, I know
all about that." And

00:04:21.170 --> 00:04:22.550
well, what do you know?

00:04:22.550 --> 00:04:24.640
- I got this picture in my mind
that she actually pulled

00:04:24.640 --> 00:04:28.270
up, maybe took the coffee,
and dumped it.

00:04:28.270 --> 00:04:30.940
- I think she went through
the drive-thru.

00:04:30.940 --> 00:04:32.030
- She was driving the car.

00:04:32.030 --> 00:04:34.486
- She tried to drive and drink
it at the same time.

00:04:34.486 --> 00:04:36.082
- And then the lid kind of
popped open and it spilled on

00:04:36.082 --> 00:04:36.310
her lap.

00:04:36.310 --> 00:04:38.010
- Had it between her legs.

00:04:38.010 --> 00:04:39.250
- It spilled in her lap.

00:04:39.250 --> 00:04:40.120
It was too hot.

00:04:40.120 --> 00:04:40.990
- And then sued McDonald's.

00:04:40.990 --> 00:04:43.740
- For millions of dollars.

00:04:43.740 --> 00:04:47.320
- And I'll say, what would
you say if I told

00:04:47.320 --> 00:04:48.510
you she wasn't driving?

00:04:48.510 --> 00:04:49.380
"Oh, no.

00:04:49.380 --> 00:04:53.260
She was driving." What would you
say if I told you that's a

00:04:53.260 --> 00:04:55.170
wrong report and she
was not driving.

00:04:55.170 --> 00:04:57.590
She was in the parking lot.

00:04:57.590 --> 00:04:59.050
She was in the passenger seat.

00:04:59.050 --> 00:05:00.300
My nephew was driving.

00:05:02.620 --> 00:05:06.550
- So we had just dropped off
my uncle at the airport and

00:05:06.550 --> 00:05:09.870
went to the nearest McDonald's
that I knew of,

00:05:09.870 --> 00:05:11.956
and this was it.

00:05:11.956 --> 00:05:15.490
So we pulled up, and she ordered
coffee with her Value

00:05:15.490 --> 00:05:19.070
Meal, and I knew she liked
cream and sugar in it.

00:05:19.070 --> 00:05:22.700
There was no place in
my 1989 Ford Probe.

00:05:22.700 --> 00:05:26.182
Everything sloped, there were
no cupholders in that car.

00:05:26.182 --> 00:05:26.678
- Thanks.

00:05:26.678 --> 00:05:27.670
Thank you.

00:05:27.670 --> 00:05:29.158
- Did I get cream
and sugar, also?

00:05:29.158 --> 00:05:29.660
- They're in the bag.

00:05:29.660 --> 00:05:30.290
- It's in the bag?

00:05:30.290 --> 00:05:31.540
Thank you.

00:05:33.960 --> 00:05:35.440
I pulled out of here
knowing that we...

00:05:35.440 --> 00:05:38.060
I needed to get organized if I
was going to be eating and

00:05:38.060 --> 00:05:40.742
driving, and I knew she wanted
to put her cream and sugar in

00:05:40.742 --> 00:05:41.250
the coffee.

00:05:41.250 --> 00:05:44.637
So we pretty much pulled right
there, almost exactly in this

00:05:44.637 --> 00:05:45.517
spot,

00:05:45.517 --> 00:05:49.455
and handed her her coffee,
or had already done that.

00:05:49.455 --> 00:05:54.334
And so we just went
about organizing.

00:05:54.334 --> 00:05:59.380
And a short period after that,
she started screaming.

00:05:59.380 --> 00:06:01.860
- Wanted to get the top off to
put cream and sugar in, so I

00:06:01.860 --> 00:06:05.720
put it between my knees to
steady it with this hand,

00:06:05.720 --> 00:06:08.974
trying to get the top off,
and it just went, whew.

00:06:08.974 --> 00:06:10.260
- Are you going to show
me the burns?

00:06:10.260 --> 00:06:11.250
- Yeah.

00:06:11.250 --> 00:06:12.585
- What?!

00:06:12.585 --> 00:06:13.030
- Yeah.

00:06:13.030 --> 00:06:15.500
Would that change your
mind at all?

00:06:15.500 --> 00:06:17.290
- Wow.

00:06:17.290 --> 00:06:17.760
Yes.

00:06:17.760 --> 00:06:20.830
If I saw injuries like that,
I would definitely take a

00:06:20.830 --> 00:06:23.791
different view of it from what
I hear from the media.

00:06:23.791 --> 00:06:25.041
- Oh my gosh!

00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:31.170
- Excruciating pain.

00:06:33.640 --> 00:06:36.790
I was burned so severely
that they didn't

00:06:36.790 --> 00:06:37.860
think I would live.

00:06:37.860 --> 00:06:41.270
- I'm a nurse, and I was
horrified at the type of

00:06:41.270 --> 00:06:44.940
injuries that she had sustained;
the skin graphs and

00:06:44.940 --> 00:06:46.860
the pieces that were
still ongoing.

00:06:46.860 --> 00:06:49.200
So it was kind of a shocker,
because it's one thing to

00:06:49.200 --> 00:06:51.730
hear, but it's another
thing to see.

00:06:51.730 --> 00:06:53.830
So it was kind of...

00:06:53.830 --> 00:06:54.930
oh my goodness.

00:06:54.930 --> 00:06:58.070
- We could see the extent
of this injury.

00:06:58.070 --> 00:07:00.900
So we started saying,
we need to ask

00:07:00.900 --> 00:07:02.920
McDonald's to pay for us.

00:07:02.920 --> 00:07:05.810
- Under no circumstances would
she ever sue or do

00:07:05.810 --> 00:07:07.250
anything like that.

00:07:07.250 --> 00:07:10.640
We thought that the company
would take care of medical and

00:07:10.640 --> 00:07:12.170
everything would be done.

00:07:12.170 --> 00:07:15.620
- And Chuck and I wrote the
letter to McDonald's.

00:07:15.620 --> 00:07:18.840
- The very first thing we said
is, your machine must be too

00:07:18.840 --> 00:07:21.750
hot, so look at it and
fix it if it's broke.

00:07:21.750 --> 00:07:23.050
- This must be an aberration.

00:07:23.050 --> 00:07:24.110
- This must be an aberration.

00:07:24.110 --> 00:07:27.900
But if it is your policy, we
ask you to worry about that

00:07:27.900 --> 00:07:31.270
policy, because you do not want
to have this happen to

00:07:31.270 --> 00:07:32.490
just one person.

00:07:32.490 --> 00:07:35.880
And clearly, it can't have
happened to just one person.

00:07:35.880 --> 00:07:41.510
- We were extremely surprised
when McDonald's did not offer

00:07:41.510 --> 00:07:44.000
more than $800 on what
was, at that point, a

00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:49.780
$10,000 medical problem.

00:07:49.780 --> 00:07:51.120
- It's one of those things
that's really like if you ask

00:07:51.120 --> 00:07:53.290
people what the top ten issues
they care about --

00:07:53.290 --> 00:07:56.780
the economy, health
care, education --

00:07:56.780 --> 00:07:59.610
the civil justice system never
even makes the top 20.

00:07:59.610 --> 00:08:03.230
It's just not in most people's
radar screen, until something

00:08:03.230 --> 00:08:04.170
bad happens to them.

00:08:04.170 --> 00:08:06.800
And then the first thing that
most Americans think is that

00:08:06.800 --> 00:08:08.230
they should find a lawyer.

00:08:08.230 --> 00:08:12.190
- When you are hurt by somebody,
harmed in some way,

00:08:12.190 --> 00:08:17.120
and the person or the company
that harms you is negligent or

00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:20.380
does this intentionally, you
have a right to hold that

00:08:20.380 --> 00:08:22.170
wrong-doing accountable.

00:08:22.170 --> 00:08:24.760
And those are the civil courts
that handle those kinds of

00:08:24.760 --> 00:08:27.720
cases, and that is our
civil justice system.

00:08:27.720 --> 00:08:29.455
It's a fundamental right
that we have.

00:08:29.455 --> 00:08:31.322
It stems from the Constitution,

00:08:31.322 --> 00:08:32.690
from the Bill of Rights.

00:08:32.690 --> 00:08:37.630
(SINGING) Hey there kiddos, the
lesson today is about our

00:08:37.630 --> 00:08:40.594
Constitution and the
government way.

00:08:40.594 --> 00:08:43.740
Lawmaking powers divided
in three:

00:08:43.740 --> 00:08:47.200
Legislative, Executive, Judiciary.

00:08:47.200 --> 00:08:54.780
The Forefathers had their say,
that is the American way.

00:08:54.780 --> 00:08:57.030
- Our Judicial branch of
government is one of the very

00:08:57.030 --> 00:08:59.840
few places where an average
person can actually go and

00:08:59.840 --> 00:09:02.580
confront a big corporation
on somewhat of a

00:09:02.580 --> 00:09:04.550
level playing field.

00:09:04.550 --> 00:09:07.340
The other two branches of
government are dominated by

00:09:07.340 --> 00:09:09.000
money and politics.

00:09:09.000 --> 00:09:12.130
The Judicial branch is not,
because you can't wine and

00:09:12.130 --> 00:09:13.540
dine juries.

00:09:13.540 --> 00:09:17.500
- But in the courts, it's you
versus General Motors.

00:09:17.500 --> 00:09:20.760
Or it's you versus
Bank of America.

00:09:20.760 --> 00:09:23.440
And if you can present your
information and your complain

00:09:23.440 --> 00:09:26.540
in an effective way, you have
just as much likelihood of

00:09:26.540 --> 00:09:28.760
winning as the General
Motors does.

00:09:28.760 --> 00:09:31.000
There's no other part of the
government where that's true.

00:09:34.110 --> 00:09:37.220
- I got involved in the
Liebeck case by way of

00:09:37.220 --> 00:09:41.150
invitation from Reed Morgan,
who was lead counsel.

00:09:41.150 --> 00:09:45.280
And once I met Reed and met
Stella Liebeck and looked at

00:09:45.280 --> 00:09:50.650
the evidence, they had my full
attention because the coffee

00:09:50.650 --> 00:09:53.840
in question was brewed at
temperatures that would

00:09:53.840 --> 00:09:57.920
approximate the temperature in
your radiator after you drive

00:09:57.920 --> 00:10:00.580
from your office to home.

00:10:00.580 --> 00:10:05.810
In discovery, we learned that
in the franchise directives

00:10:05.810 --> 00:10:08.790
and manuals that the franchisee
was required to

00:10:08.790 --> 00:10:12.330
follow, that they had to have
their waters at certain

00:10:12.330 --> 00:10:13.150
temperatures.

00:10:13.150 --> 00:10:17.350
And they said that the holding
temperature should be 180

00:10:17.350 --> 00:10:20.920
Fahrenheit to 190 Fahrenheit.

00:10:20.920 --> 00:10:23.800
- Hot liquid, whether it's
coffee or water or any liquid

00:10:23.800 --> 00:10:27.490
like that, if it's in the
range of 180 degrees or

00:10:27.490 --> 00:10:31.600
hotter, if it is in contact with
you skin for more than

00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:35.040
just a few seconds, it will
produce very serious burns.

00:10:35.040 --> 00:10:37.855
If you're lucky, it'll produce
a second degree burn.

00:10:37.855 --> 00:10:41.260
If you're not as lucky, you will
get 3rd degree or full

00:10:41.260 --> 00:10:44.050
thickness burns, requiring skin
grafting and surgery.

00:10:51.610 --> 00:10:55.140
- If you add up the burn history
of McDonald's since

00:10:55.140 --> 00:11:03.855
January of 1983 until March of
'92, it's over 700 burn cases,

00:11:03.855 --> 00:11:06.730
and that doesn't surprise
you, does it?

00:11:06.730 --> 00:11:09.470
- I can't say that I'm surprised
or not surprised.

00:11:09.470 --> 00:11:12.060
I'm glad the numbers
not higher.

00:11:12.060 --> 00:11:14.580
I'm really pleased that it's
not more than that.

00:11:14.580 --> 00:11:18.050
- I thought that was terrible
that he was so

00:11:18.050 --> 00:11:19.040
indifferent about it.

00:11:19.040 --> 00:11:22.660
Even if it was just one person,
that's enough to pay

00:11:22.660 --> 00:11:23.670
attention to...

00:11:23.670 --> 00:11:27.040
I mean, one person
that spoke up.

00:11:27.040 --> 00:11:28.640
I'm sure there's more
than that that was

00:11:28.640 --> 00:11:30.300
damaged by hot coffee.

00:11:30.300 --> 00:11:37.000
But it's so easy to burn at
that temperature, and they

00:11:37.000 --> 00:11:38.640
were so indifferent about it.

00:11:38.640 --> 00:11:41.700
- If you were to take a sip of
that coffee, enough to where

00:11:41.700 --> 00:11:44.980
you could feel it go down your
throat, you can't do that at

00:11:44.980 --> 00:11:46.670
180 to 190 degrees, can you?

00:11:46.670 --> 00:11:47.550
Because you'll be burned.

00:11:47.550 --> 00:11:48.760
- You better not do that.

00:11:48.760 --> 00:11:50.010
You will get burned.

00:11:56.940 --> 00:12:00.680
- We talked about different
percentages of how much was

00:12:00.680 --> 00:12:05.250
her fault versus how much
was McDonald's.

00:12:05.250 --> 00:12:10.290
And we finally came to assign
20?ult to Mrs. Liebeck

00:12:10.290 --> 00:12:12.920
because she had initially
spilled the coffee.

00:12:12.920 --> 00:12:18.640
And we assigned 80% of the blame
to McDonald's because

00:12:18.640 --> 00:12:23.250
they had a very long history
of people being injured.

00:12:23.250 --> 00:12:28.650
And they were so adamant that
it was such a trivial thing

00:12:28.650 --> 00:12:32.720
that they weren't going to
bother to do anything other

00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:35.485
than just continue to
rake in the money on

00:12:35.485 --> 00:12:36.740
their coffee sales.

00:12:36.740 --> 00:12:41.080
And the fact that it was their
own records really damned

00:12:41.080 --> 00:12:43.980
McDonald's, as far as I was
concerned, because it was very

00:12:43.980 --> 00:12:47.520
obvious that they knew there
was a problem and they were

00:12:47.520 --> 00:12:52.280
ignoring it completely, just
totally disregarding the

00:12:52.280 --> 00:12:53.530
consumer safety.

00:12:59.260 --> 00:13:04.340
We looked at the coffee sales
on a daily basis, and we

00:13:04.340 --> 00:13:08.360
figured about two days worth
of coffee sales.

00:13:08.360 --> 00:13:13.210
We thought that was a fair
amount, and punitive damages

00:13:13.210 --> 00:13:16.520
we assessed at $2.7 million.

00:13:16.520 --> 00:13:22.080
- Punitive damages are very
rare, and they have a specific

00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:24.950
purpose, which is to essentially
change the

00:13:24.950 --> 00:13:26.870
behavior of the wrongdoer.

00:13:26.870 --> 00:13:30.630
- The only way you can get the
attention of a big company

00:13:30.630 --> 00:13:35.000
would be to make punitive
damages against them.

00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:38.636
And this was a very small
punitive damage, we thought.

00:13:50.890 --> 00:13:55.210
- Even though the amount was
reduced later, I think the

00:13:55.210 --> 00:13:59.370
initial award certainly got
everybody's attention, not

00:13:59.370 --> 00:14:01.965
necessarily in a
favorable way.

00:14:01.965 --> 00:14:04.610
(RAPPING) I'll sue Starbucks,
because I spilled a

00:14:04.610 --> 00:14:07.372
Frappuccino in my lap,
and brr, it was cold!

00:14:07.372 --> 00:14:09.737
I'm going to sue, sue,
yes I'm going to sue!

00:14:09.737 --> 00:14:11.640
Sue, sue!

00:14:11.640 --> 00:14:15.830
- The media in corporate America
turned a disadvantage

00:14:15.830 --> 00:14:19.350
into an advantage, an extreme
advantage, as to how they

00:14:19.350 --> 00:14:21.600
dealt with this case
and its aftermath.

00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:24.640
I mean, Mrs. Liebeck
became a joke.

00:14:24.640 --> 00:14:28.250
The jury function became a joke,
not withstanding of the

00:14:28.250 --> 00:14:32.160
fact that we had 12 good, hard
working New Mexico citizens on

00:14:32.160 --> 00:14:35.350
that jury, and it was a
unanimous verdict, but they

00:14:35.350 --> 00:14:39.590
did a masterful job of taking
this simple verdict and

00:14:39.590 --> 00:14:42.230
turning it upside down as
though people like Mrs.

00:14:42.230 --> 00:14:45.330
Liebeck were trying to take
economic advantage of the

00:14:45.330 --> 00:14:47.740
whole legal system.

00:14:47.740 --> 00:14:49.570
- The tort reform groups,
they love the

00:14:49.570 --> 00:14:50.890
McDonald's coffee case.

00:14:50.890 --> 00:14:53.220
This is a perfect case for them,
because it looked like

00:14:53.220 --> 00:14:54.550
it was frivolous.

00:14:54.550 --> 00:14:58.060
- I had heard the word "tort
reform" before my mother was

00:14:58.060 --> 00:15:01.830
injured, but I had never really

00:15:01.830 --> 00:15:03.100
understood what that meant.

00:15:06.470 --> 00:15:12.040
- A tort is a pastry,
as far as I know.

00:15:12.040 --> 00:15:14.320
- It's also some type of funding
that the federal

00:15:14.320 --> 00:15:17.811
government has done for bailout
money, I believe.

00:15:17.811 --> 00:15:20.457
- Oh, I thought that was TARP?

00:15:20.457 --> 00:15:21.550
- No, I think it's tort.

00:15:21.550 --> 00:15:22.665
- I have no idea
what a tort is.

00:15:22.665 --> 00:15:27.220
- A tort is a piece of...

00:15:27.220 --> 00:15:28.050
it's a...

00:15:28.050 --> 00:15:31.755
I think a tort is a piece of
bread that looks like a hoagie

00:15:31.755 --> 00:15:35.250
roll, but isn't a hoagie roll.

00:15:35.250 --> 00:15:37.570
- So a "tort" is a harm.

00:15:37.570 --> 00:15:41.190
When someone commits a tort,
they have harmed you in some

00:15:41.190 --> 00:15:41.600
way.

00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:43.510
- I've heard the statement
"tort reform".

00:15:43.510 --> 00:15:45.164
- Do you know what it means?

00:15:45.164 --> 00:15:46.460
- No.

00:15:46.460 --> 00:15:50.070
"Tort reform" would mean
trying to clean up the

00:15:50.070 --> 00:15:53.390
logistics of suing people,
or trying to make

00:15:53.390 --> 00:15:54.340
it easier or harder.

00:15:54.340 --> 00:15:57.170
I'm not quite sure which way
tort reform tends to work.

00:15:57.170 --> 00:16:00.050
Well, "tort reform" is a term
dreamed up by some of the

00:16:00.050 --> 00:16:04.540
advertising people for the
business sector, which is to

00:16:04.540 --> 00:16:07.430
limit the likelihood that
you can bring a lawsuit.

00:16:07.430 --> 00:16:11.870
- It is essentially laws
that restrict people's

00:16:11.870 --> 00:16:13.180
rights to go to court.

00:16:13.180 --> 00:16:14.700
- I don't think that
the term...

00:16:14.700 --> 00:16:16.080
I'm not going to say it.

00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:18.780
I won't say the word "tort
reform", that phrase.

00:16:18.780 --> 00:16:24.130
Because I don't think that it is
an accurate representation

00:16:24.130 --> 00:16:25.310
of what's really going on.

00:16:25.310 --> 00:16:27.150
- Ralph Nader calls
it "tort deform".

00:16:27.150 --> 00:16:30.260
So I guess reform is in the
eyes of the beholder.

00:16:30.260 --> 00:16:34.660
But if you want to change a
system which had become, in

00:16:34.660 --> 00:16:38.620
the late 1970s, very, very
pro-plaintiff, in the view of

00:16:38.620 --> 00:16:41.640
some, if you want to change
it, usually the

00:16:41.640 --> 00:16:44.630
word "reform" is used.

00:16:44.630 --> 00:16:48.590
- This big push to publicize
the McDonald's case came in

00:16:48.590 --> 00:16:51.135
the midst of an attempt to pass
federal legislation that

00:16:51.135 --> 00:16:52.980
was going to limit
the consumer's

00:16:52.980 --> 00:16:54.260
right to go to court.

00:16:54.260 --> 00:16:57.350
It meant that there were gonna
be caps on damages, that there

00:16:57.350 --> 00:17:00.830
were going to be all sorts of
changes in the rules of what

00:17:00.830 --> 00:17:03.430
you could do in order to bring
a case into court.

00:17:03.430 --> 00:17:06.480
And so there was this humongous
campaign by industry

00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:08.040
attempting to effect
juries, but also

00:17:08.040 --> 00:17:09.900
attempting to affect senators.

00:17:09.900 --> 00:17:13.290
And the McDonald's case became
the poster child for what's

00:17:13.290 --> 00:17:15.619
wrong with people going
to court and suing.

00:17:15.619 --> 00:17:18.450
- We looked at the congressional
hearings about

00:17:18.450 --> 00:17:22.579
the tort reform bill, and we
found that the most common

00:17:22.579 --> 00:17:25.380
reference to justify tort reform
was the McDonald's

00:17:25.380 --> 00:17:25.715
coffee case.

00:17:25.715 --> 00:17:28.010
There were not many statistical
studies.

00:17:28.010 --> 00:17:30.260
The primary evidence was
everybody knows the McDonald's

00:17:30.260 --> 00:17:32.500
coffee case, therefore
we need tort reform.

00:17:32.500 --> 00:17:35.190
- If a lady goes to a fast food
restaurant, puts coffee

00:17:35.190 --> 00:17:38.790
in her lap, burns her legs
and sues and gets a big

00:17:38.790 --> 00:17:42.070
settlement, that in and of
itself is enough to tell you

00:17:42.070 --> 00:17:43.840
why we need to have
tort reform.

00:17:43.840 --> 00:17:47.060
- And in fact what happened was
it did pass the Senate,

00:17:47.060 --> 00:17:49.550
and President Bill Clinton
did veto it.

00:17:49.550 --> 00:17:53.270
- This legislation is
arcane, complex.

00:17:53.270 --> 00:17:56.460
It has a lot of legalisms
and loopholes in it.

00:17:56.460 --> 00:18:01.090
But the real fact is it could
have a devastating impact on

00:18:01.090 --> 00:18:02.550
innocent Americans...

00:18:02.550 --> 00:18:04.650
- And so what happened was
corporate America sort of went

00:18:04.650 --> 00:18:08.466
to a Plan B. So they went to a
lot of state legislatures and

00:18:08.466 --> 00:18:11.940
asked the state legislatures to
pass laws that would limit

00:18:11.940 --> 00:18:15.030
the rights and remedies of
individuals in various ways.

00:18:15.030 --> 00:18:17.430
- And they were constantly on
the attack because they had so

00:18:17.430 --> 00:18:20.570
many PR firms that they had
hired to go out and do their

00:18:20.570 --> 00:18:22.270
work in the different states.

00:18:22.270 --> 00:18:25.730
- A woman was awarded $2.9
billion in a lawsuit against

00:18:25.730 --> 00:18:26.340
McDonald's.

00:18:26.340 --> 00:18:29.280
She spilled hot coffee on her
lap while sitting in her car

00:18:29.280 --> 00:18:30.680
and claimed it was too hot.

00:18:30.680 --> 00:18:33.760
Every day, we hear about another
outrageous lawsuit.

00:18:33.760 --> 00:18:34.520
Who pays?

00:18:34.520 --> 00:18:35.250
You do.

00:18:35.250 --> 00:18:38.040
Tell the legislature we can't
afford another million-dollar

00:18:38.040 --> 00:18:39.200
cup of coffee.

00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:43.890
- One of the most significant PR
efforts was spearheaded by

00:18:43.890 --> 00:18:47.760
the American Tort Reform
Association, ATRA.

00:18:47.760 --> 00:18:51.050
- The American Tort Reform
Association is a group of

00:18:51.050 --> 00:18:54.980
several hundred businesses
and also colleges and

00:18:54.980 --> 00:18:56.300
universities.

00:18:56.300 --> 00:18:58.480
And I'm their general counsel.

00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:01.350
And they are dedicated to try to
see that there's a fair and

00:19:01.350 --> 00:19:03.540
balanced legal system in
the United States.

00:19:03.540 --> 00:19:08.710
- The American Tort Reform
Association was formed in 1986

00:19:08.710 --> 00:19:12.790
by about 300 major corporations,
insurance

00:19:12.790 --> 00:19:15.290
companies, chemical companies,
oil and gas,

00:19:15.290 --> 00:19:16.980
pharmaceutical companies.

00:19:16.980 --> 00:19:19.770
They were going to start
advocating for laws all around

00:19:19.770 --> 00:19:22.030
the country to limit
the liability

00:19:22.030 --> 00:19:23.560
of all their members.

00:19:23.560 --> 00:19:27.210
And so they hired a PR firm and
they came up with these

00:19:27.210 --> 00:19:30.240
groups called Citizens Against
Lawsuit Abuse.

00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:32.870
They were to give the impression
that these were

00:19:32.870 --> 00:19:37.040
just citizen groups that had
sprung up spontaneously.

00:19:37.040 --> 00:19:39.740
- "Astro turf" groups, so they
looked like they were

00:19:39.740 --> 00:19:42.120
grassroots groups, but they
really had no people in them.

00:19:42.120 --> 00:19:44.100
They were all run through
the PR firm.

00:19:44.100 --> 00:19:46.190
That's what Citizens Against
Lawsuit Abuse was.

00:19:46.190 --> 00:19:48.742
- The tobacco industry was
actually funding a lot of

00:19:48.742 --> 00:19:53.160
this, that they would funnel
money through a Washington, DC

00:19:53.160 --> 00:19:56.750
law firm called Covington &
Burling that would then

00:19:56.750 --> 00:20:00.440
distribute tobacco money to some
of these Citizens Against

00:20:00.440 --> 00:20:02.810
Lawsuit Abuse groups.

00:20:02.810 --> 00:20:06.540
- Was there any distortions
by people in the media, by

00:20:06.540 --> 00:20:09.550
politicians, by people who
wanted tort reform?

00:20:09.550 --> 00:20:12.110
Sometimes stories were repeated
and repeated over and

00:20:12.110 --> 00:20:13.870
over again -- it happens
all the time --

00:20:13.870 --> 00:20:17.010
that were not true or
they were unfounded.

00:20:17.010 --> 00:20:18.940
I don't think it was
intentional.

00:20:18.940 --> 00:20:20.330
- Listen to just a few cases.

00:20:20.330 --> 00:20:22.670
I hope I won't be repeating some
that maybe have already

00:20:22.670 --> 00:20:24.360
been told to you.

00:20:24.360 --> 00:20:27.180
In California, a man was using
a public telephone booth to

00:20:27.180 --> 00:20:28.690
place a call.

00:20:28.690 --> 00:20:32.200
An alleged drunk driver careened
down the street, lost

00:20:32.200 --> 00:20:35.470
control of her car, and crashed
into the phone booth.

00:20:35.470 --> 00:20:38.270
Now, it's no surprise that
the injured man sued.

00:20:38.270 --> 00:20:42.300
But you might be startled to
hear whom he sued: the

00:20:42.300 --> 00:20:46.220
telephone company and
associated firms.

00:20:46.220 --> 00:20:47.200
That's right.

00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:49.560
- There's a telephone booth on
the corner of a very busy

00:20:49.560 --> 00:20:52.525
intersection in Los Angeles,
and this guy

00:20:52.525 --> 00:20:53.540
was standing inside.

00:20:53.540 --> 00:20:55.800
And he saw this car coming right
at him, and he tried to

00:20:55.800 --> 00:20:58.820
get out of the phone booth,
and the door stuck.

00:20:58.820 --> 00:21:01.030
And the reason that this was
the fault of the telephone

00:21:01.030 --> 00:21:03.140
company is that there'd been
lots of other cases where this

00:21:03.140 --> 00:21:05.690
telephone booth had been hit by
cars, because it was in a

00:21:05.690 --> 00:21:07.540
very dangerous position.

00:21:07.540 --> 00:21:10.310
And it hadn't been properly
repaired, so the guy

00:21:10.310 --> 00:21:11.490
couldn't get out.

00:21:11.490 --> 00:21:13.390
And so he was hit inside
the phone booth.

00:21:13.390 --> 00:21:14.040
He lost his leg.

00:21:14.040 --> 00:21:15.480
He was extremely ill.

00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:17.990
- You know, it was not the
source of real humor the way

00:21:17.990 --> 00:21:19.280
Reagan had portrayed it.

00:21:19.280 --> 00:21:21.230
And so there are a lot
of stories like that.

00:21:21.230 --> 00:21:23.790
For me, not being a lawyer,
I am a journalist.

00:21:23.790 --> 00:21:27.050
And I felt like journalists
had just really not done a

00:21:27.050 --> 00:21:29.990
good job of covering, and that
they had fallen for lots of

00:21:29.990 --> 00:21:33.570
public relations ruses that they
should know better about.

00:21:33.570 --> 00:21:37.470
- There was even a story of
somebody taking a lawn mower

00:21:37.470 --> 00:21:40.770
to trim a hedge, and there was
a lawsuit and, actually, it

00:21:40.770 --> 00:21:41.830
never occurred.

00:21:41.830 --> 00:21:44.925
So there were some scare tactics
that really didn't

00:21:44.925 --> 00:21:45.970
have basis in fact.

00:21:45.970 --> 00:21:48.040
- I didn't take this job to
sit around and worry about

00:21:48.040 --> 00:21:48.690
getting sued.

00:21:48.690 --> 00:21:50.880
- If we don't stop
lawsuit abuse

00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:52.800
- I might not be able
to do my job.

00:21:52.800 --> 00:21:55.890
- And my job just might
be to save your life.

00:21:55.890 --> 00:21:59.650
- Join the jury against
lawsuit abuse.

00:21:59.650 --> 00:22:02.720
- It was supposedly just a group
of businesspeople and

00:22:02.720 --> 00:22:05.570
community leaders who were
acting on their own when, in

00:22:05.570 --> 00:22:09.540
fact, it was a carefully
orchestrated campaign

00:22:09.540 --> 00:22:12.590
orchestrated out of Washington,
DC with the help

00:22:12.590 --> 00:22:16.200
of people like Karl Rove, who
had their own business and

00:22:16.200 --> 00:22:20.260
financial interest in pushing
the agenda of tort reform and

00:22:20.260 --> 00:22:23.960
making it look like it was a
totally spontaneous event.

00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:28.070
- Texas must end the junk
lawsuits that clog our courts

00:22:28.070 --> 00:22:31.320
and threaten our producers.

00:22:31.320 --> 00:22:35.230
- In Texas in the mid '90s,
you had Karl Rove, and

00:22:35.230 --> 00:22:38.550
then-candidate Bush come along
and see that there was a real

00:22:38.550 --> 00:22:42.330
political advantage to talking
about so-called tort reform.

00:22:42.330 --> 00:22:45.270
- Karl Rove was, in the early
1990s, a consultant for

00:22:45.270 --> 00:22:47.540
Phillip Morris, for the
tobacco industry.

00:22:47.540 --> 00:22:49.420
- He was working for
Phillip Morris and

00:22:49.420 --> 00:22:50.560
Bush at the same time.

00:22:50.560 --> 00:22:52.170
He was on the Phillip
Morris payroll.

00:22:52.170 --> 00:22:54.020
So he had a lot of ties
to these folks.

00:22:54.020 --> 00:22:57.090
- Rove thought that if he used
tort reform and if his

00:22:57.090 --> 00:23:00.520
candidates ran on tort reform,
it would make it that much

00:23:00.520 --> 00:23:02.800
easier for him to open
the pockets of

00:23:02.800 --> 00:23:03.900
the business community.

00:23:03.900 --> 00:23:07.330
- And then once Governor Bush
was elected, it was "Katy, bar

00:23:07.330 --> 00:23:10.500
the door!" They implemented
all of the things that

00:23:10.500 --> 00:23:12.980
interests like insurance
companies and the health care

00:23:12.980 --> 00:23:15.750
industry and others
wanted in Texas.

00:23:15.750 --> 00:23:19.000
- And so it's with great
pleasure that's I sign a cap

00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:23.240
on punitive damages that
will add certainty to

00:23:23.240 --> 00:23:26.330
the business climate.

00:23:26.330 --> 00:23:29.240
- And a lot of the people who
had been his biggest financial

00:23:29.240 --> 00:23:31.718
backers in Texas, they followed
him right to the

00:23:31.718 --> 00:23:34.290
White House, so he kept going.

00:23:34.290 --> 00:23:38.390
- No one has ever been healed
by a frivolous lawsuit.

00:23:38.390 --> 00:23:42.540
I urge the Congress to pass
medical liability reform.

00:23:42.540 --> 00:23:47.400
Our economy is held back by
irresponsible class actions

00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:49.840
and frivolous asbestos claims.

00:23:49.840 --> 00:23:53.560
And I urge Congress to pass
legal reforms this year.

00:23:53.560 --> 00:23:54.886
(APPLAUSE)

00:23:54.886 --> 00:23:57.460
Because lawsuits are driving
many good doctors out of

00:23:57.460 --> 00:24:01.950
practice, leaving women and
nearly 1,500 American counties

00:24:01.950 --> 00:24:04.270
without a single OB/GYN.

00:24:04.270 --> 00:24:06.480
I ask the Congress
to pass medical

00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:09.900
liability reform this year.

00:24:09.900 --> 00:24:11.550
- He was tort reformer
and chief.

00:24:11.550 --> 00:24:13.820
He really brought the issue to
the center stage in a way that

00:24:13.820 --> 00:24:15.590
nobody else had ever done.

00:24:15.590 --> 00:24:18.325
- Too many good Docs are getting
out of business.

00:24:18.325 --> 00:24:22.510
Too many OB/GYNs aren't able
to practice their love with

00:24:22.510 --> 00:24:24.400
women all across this country.

00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:25.890
We're a litigious society.

00:24:25.890 --> 00:24:27.790
Everybody's suing,
it seems like.

00:24:27.790 --> 00:24:30.890
There are too many lawsuits
in America.

00:24:30.890 --> 00:24:34.950
- If you have the right words
that evoke your whole system

00:24:34.950 --> 00:24:37.700
of thought and your way of
understanding an issue, and

00:24:37.700 --> 00:24:39.436
when that language is
repeated over and

00:24:39.436 --> 00:24:41.580
over, the brain changes.

00:24:41.580 --> 00:24:45.790
The circuitry gets stronger,
and can become permanent.

00:24:45.790 --> 00:24:47.920
- In my line of work, you've got
to keep repeating things

00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:52.970
over and over and over again
for the truth to sink in.

00:24:52.970 --> 00:24:55.640
To kind of catapult
the propaganda.

00:24:55.640 --> 00:24:59.960
- So they would get their
message out there and then the

00:24:59.960 --> 00:25:04.360
public would pressure their
local legislators to enact

00:25:04.360 --> 00:25:07.450
caps on damages and other kinds
of liability limits.

00:25:07.450 --> 00:25:11.710
So there was a direct link
between the PR that was done

00:25:11.710 --> 00:25:13.365
and, ultimately, the
passage of laws.

00:25:35.430 --> 00:25:38.133
- We got 16 candles we have
to put in here, because

00:25:38.133 --> 00:25:38.895
you're 16 years old.

00:25:38.895 --> 00:25:41.610
So pick up one.

00:25:41.610 --> 00:25:43.400
This has to be the top.

00:25:43.400 --> 00:25:47.850
Turn it around so that you have
a hold of this part, and

00:25:47.850 --> 00:25:52.141
then you're going to put it in
up there, any place you want.

00:25:52.141 --> 00:25:53.440
N-O?

00:25:53.440 --> 00:25:56.020
- Put it there.

00:25:56.020 --> 00:25:56.500
OK.

00:25:56.500 --> 00:25:58.390
Now let me show you what
you need to do.

00:25:58.390 --> 00:25:58.900
You need to take it...

00:25:58.900 --> 00:25:59.230
- Don't laugh.

00:25:59.230 --> 00:26:00.546
Don't laugh.

00:26:00.546 --> 00:26:01.702
They're... they're not
going to laugh.

00:26:01.702 --> 00:26:02.100
Take a hold of it.

00:26:02.100 --> 00:26:02.450
- No.

00:26:02.450 --> 00:26:02.800
- Here.

00:26:02.800 --> 00:26:03.686
I'll help you.

00:26:03.686 --> 00:26:06.230
- I had no idea what
tort reform was.

00:26:06.230 --> 00:26:09.110
I had no idea that there were
caps on damages here in

00:26:09.110 --> 00:26:12.870
Nebraska prior to
Colin's case.

00:26:12.870 --> 00:26:17.930
- Caps on damages I think is
something that exists when

00:26:17.930 --> 00:26:19.360
there is misuse in the system.

00:26:19.360 --> 00:26:23.220
So I would trust just as someone
has the right to

00:26:23.220 --> 00:26:27.365
access the courts, there should
be a body overseeing it

00:26:27.365 --> 00:26:32.640
and regulating it, and
that's what a cap is.

00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:35.570
A cap is public oversight
on abuse with...

00:26:35.570 --> 00:26:35.650
- Yeah.

00:26:35.650 --> 00:26:39.280
It's a limit for how much money
you get from like, the

00:26:39.280 --> 00:26:42.680
tobacco company that killed
your wife because of lung

00:26:42.680 --> 00:26:45.060
cancer or, I don't know.

00:26:45.060 --> 00:26:47.360
You can only sue your doctor
for so much, right?

00:26:47.360 --> 00:26:47.670
Isn't that...

00:26:47.670 --> 00:26:49.160
- Right, because there's
abuse, and so you

00:26:49.160 --> 00:26:50.710
have to set a limit.

00:26:50.710 --> 00:26:54.510
- One of the most common
so-called tort reforms is

00:26:54.510 --> 00:26:57.550
what's called "caps on damages",
or limits on the

00:26:57.550 --> 00:27:01.430
amount of money that a jury or
a judge can award to somebody

00:27:01.430 --> 00:27:03.990
after they've been hurt
and won their case.

00:27:03.990 --> 00:27:05.490
Their opportunity to get

00:27:05.490 --> 00:27:08.050
compensation is strictly limited.

00:27:08.050 --> 00:27:09.400
- I want to be honest
with you.

00:27:09.400 --> 00:27:13.513
I'm not advocating caps
on malpractice awards.

00:27:13.513 --> 00:27:16.880
(BOOING)

00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:19.530
- Which I believe, I personally
believe to be

00:27:19.530 --> 00:27:21.760
unfair to people who have
been wrongfully harmed.

00:27:26.044 --> 00:27:28.290
- Wow, you're a big helper.

00:27:28.290 --> 00:27:31.070
- I know that.

00:27:31.070 --> 00:27:36.750
- I was 36 weeks along,
pregnant with

00:27:36.750 --> 00:27:38.940
identical twin boys.

00:27:38.940 --> 00:27:43.980
And I noticed the night before
my regularly scheduled

00:27:43.980 --> 00:27:47.090
doctor's appointment that
the movement...

00:27:47.090 --> 00:27:49.650
normally when I'd go to bed,
the babies would be really

00:27:49.650 --> 00:27:52.540
moving around a lot, and I
noticed that they weren't

00:27:52.540 --> 00:27:53.760
moving around very much.

00:27:53.760 --> 00:27:55.860
And I just kind of felt
like, "You know,

00:27:55.860 --> 00:27:57.560
this is kind of weird.

00:27:57.560 --> 00:27:59.570
And I'm going to the doctor
in the morning.

00:27:59.570 --> 00:28:01.000
I'll talk to her about it."

00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:04.740
And I went in, and I told her,
and she's like, "Well, let's

00:28:04.740 --> 00:28:06.420
listen to the heartbeats."
And she listened to the

00:28:06.420 --> 00:28:07.840
heartbeats.

00:28:07.840 --> 00:28:12.380
And she said, "You know, the
heartbeats are normal.

00:28:12.380 --> 00:28:15.833
Everything looks good." And
so I was reassured.

00:28:26.800 --> 00:28:30.470
It's really important to
determine how many placentas

00:28:30.470 --> 00:28:32.710
when you're pregnant
with twins.

00:28:32.710 --> 00:28:34.630
If there's only one
placenta, then

00:28:34.630 --> 00:28:36.300
it's a high risk pregnancy.

00:28:36.300 --> 00:28:40.220
So when I went in with my
concern on Monday, it should

00:28:40.220 --> 00:28:43.840
have been immediately followed
up with an ultrasound and

00:28:43.840 --> 00:28:45.010
stress tests.

00:28:45.010 --> 00:28:47.290
And had they done that, they
would have seen what was

00:28:47.290 --> 00:28:50.390
happening was the Twin-to-Twin
Transfusion Syndrome, where

00:28:50.390 --> 00:28:52.900
one baby starts getting
everything and the other

00:28:52.900 --> 00:28:54.150
baby's getting nothing.

00:28:57.060 --> 00:29:02.310
The next day, the movement was
less, and then the next day,

00:29:02.310 --> 00:29:03.840
the movement was even less.

00:29:03.840 --> 00:29:06.890
And I started to become
really concerned.

00:29:06.890 --> 00:29:10.170
And I called the doctor's
office, and we're going to see

00:29:10.170 --> 00:29:12.070
Dr. Knolla's partner.

00:29:12.070 --> 00:29:12.650
He said, "Come on.

00:29:12.650 --> 00:29:15.990
Let's go do an ultrasound." And
he showed the heartbeat of

00:29:15.990 --> 00:29:16.595
one of the babies.

00:29:16.595 --> 00:29:20.910
And it was so slow it was like
almost going to stop.

00:29:20.910 --> 00:29:23.090
And he said, "You know, there's
not a lot of fluid

00:29:23.090 --> 00:29:26.180
around one of the babies, and we
need to deliver the babies

00:29:26.180 --> 00:29:44.940
right away."

00:29:44.940 --> 00:29:49.290
Colin suffered severe
brain damage to all

00:29:49.290 --> 00:29:50.900
areas of the brain.

00:29:50.900 --> 00:29:52.220
- They just said that it must
have been from a lack of

00:29:52.220 --> 00:29:55.280
oxygen or whatever, but they
didn't really say how it

00:29:55.280 --> 00:29:58.970
happened or why it happened,
or give us any further

00:29:58.970 --> 00:29:59.960
background.

00:29:59.960 --> 00:30:04.150
And I guess that kind of led
us to keep asking questions

00:30:04.150 --> 00:30:05.680
and keep looking for answers.

00:30:05.680 --> 00:30:08.930
Well, I've got one son that's
perfectly normal.

00:30:08.930 --> 00:30:10.790
He's a normal child.

00:30:10.790 --> 00:30:12.790
I've got one son who has severe
brain damage, and they

00:30:12.790 --> 00:30:14.720
were born at the same time.

00:30:14.720 --> 00:30:16.650
What happened here?

00:30:16.650 --> 00:30:18.570
- The Gourleys also never knew
that before they went to see

00:30:18.570 --> 00:30:22.410
Dr. Knolla, she'd been in court
before, sued two other

00:30:22.410 --> 00:30:25.160
times, both for malpractice.

00:30:25.160 --> 00:30:28.950
- According to court records,
in 1987 and 1989, Dr. Knolla

00:30:28.950 --> 00:30:31.590
was accused of botching
two pelvic operations.

00:30:31.590 --> 00:30:34.690
It appears both cases were
settled secretly, but legally,

00:30:34.690 --> 00:30:37.670
out of court.

00:30:37.670 --> 00:30:41.290
- At trial, it came out that
the injury was caused by a

00:30:41.290 --> 00:30:46.010
lack of blood flow from the
placenta through the cord, and

00:30:46.010 --> 00:30:49.380
oxygen depletion of the brain
for five to eight minutes is

00:30:49.380 --> 00:30:51.520
what caused the damage.

00:30:51.520 --> 00:30:52.990
So not knowing...

00:30:52.990 --> 00:30:57.073
I mean, looking back, all that
time was so critical.

00:30:59.620 --> 00:31:03.810
Had they just delivered
them right away.

00:31:03.810 --> 00:31:08.270
And the nurses testified that
the doctor had called over to

00:31:08.270 --> 00:31:11.890
the hospital, and they had the
OR prepared and ready, but the

00:31:11.890 --> 00:31:13.600
doctors weren't there.

00:31:13.600 --> 00:31:16.620
You just start thinking all
these things, and why didn't

00:31:16.620 --> 00:31:20.460
they do an ultrasound
on that Monday?

00:31:20.460 --> 00:31:25.750
And then I went through, for
about three years, of "Why

00:31:25.750 --> 00:31:31.750
didn't I just ask?" I kind of
blamed myself for a while.

00:31:34.880 --> 00:31:41.850
But you just want to change
what happened.

00:31:41.850 --> 00:31:43.650
And knowing that it
was preventable.

00:31:46.716 --> 00:31:50.360
- The economists at the time
said that he would need $6

00:31:50.360 --> 00:31:54.580
million at the time of the trial
for him to have enough

00:31:54.580 --> 00:31:57.920
money to take care of him for
the rest of his life.

00:32:24.130 --> 00:32:27.320
- In most instances, when you
have a lawsuit where a cap

00:32:27.320 --> 00:32:30.650
statute is involved, the jury
doesn't know that there's a

00:32:30.650 --> 00:32:32.290
cap statute.

00:32:32.290 --> 00:32:36.550
So if the jury renders an award
which is higher than the

00:32:36.550 --> 00:32:40.950
cap statute, the trial judge,
after the trial, then reduces

00:32:40.950 --> 00:32:43.850
the verdict to the amount
of the cap.

00:32:43.850 --> 00:32:49.100
And so actually it takes away
the power of the jury to make

00:32:49.100 --> 00:32:51.390
a determination as to what a
fair and reasonable amount

00:32:51.390 --> 00:32:53.270
should be for damages.

00:32:53.270 --> 00:32:57.280
- That's in the Bill of Rights,
that juries, not

00:32:57.280 --> 00:32:59.960
legislators, get to determine
questions

00:32:59.960 --> 00:33:01.740
of fact in the courtroom.

00:33:01.740 --> 00:33:04.940
And one of the most important
issues of fact decided in a

00:33:04.940 --> 00:33:08.750
civil jury trial is what the
appropriate damages are to

00:33:08.750 --> 00:33:11.975
compensate someone who has been
injured due to the fault

00:33:11.975 --> 00:33:12.400
of another.

00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:14.060
You would agree with that?

00:33:14.060 --> 00:33:15.320
- I don't disagree
with that, no.

00:33:15.320 --> 00:33:21.040
- So why does the US Chamber
spend so much money trying to

00:33:21.040 --> 00:33:26.440
convince us that we know more
about the value of someone's

00:33:26.440 --> 00:33:30.430
injury or death than the people
who elected us to

00:33:30.430 --> 00:33:34.380
Congress who go into jury boxes
all over this country

00:33:34.380 --> 00:33:37.470
under the Seventh Amendment
to the Bill of Rights?

00:33:37.470 --> 00:33:40.580
- The judge ruled that the
cap here in Nebraska was

00:33:40.580 --> 00:33:43.910
unconstitutional, that
it violated your

00:33:43.910 --> 00:33:46.460
rights to a jury trial.

00:33:46.460 --> 00:33:49.990
And then the doctors and the
insurance company appealed the

00:33:49.990 --> 00:33:52.320
case to the Nebraska
Supreme Court.

00:33:52.320 --> 00:33:56.360
And the Nebraska Supreme Court
came back and found the cap

00:33:56.360 --> 00:33:58.300
constitutional.

00:33:58.300 --> 00:34:00.940
- I've been involved in the tort
reform issues in Nebraska

00:34:00.940 --> 00:34:03.250
for a long time, but most
recently as a member of the

00:34:03.250 --> 00:34:05.290
Professional Liability Committee
of the Nebraska

00:34:05.290 --> 00:34:09.130
Medical Association, and
subsequent to that, the

00:34:09.130 --> 00:34:12.080
Colorado Physicians Insurance
Company, which is the major

00:34:12.080 --> 00:34:14.159
malpractice carrier
for this region.

00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:16.480
In Nebraska, we have
a total cap.

00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:19.170
That includes all damages,
whether it be economic or

00:34:19.170 --> 00:34:20.880
non-economic damages.

00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:22.960
- So caps on damages
can be three kinds.

00:34:22.960 --> 00:34:26.050
There can be caps on punitive
damages in some states.

00:34:26.050 --> 00:34:29.270
There's caps on non-economic
damages in many states.

00:34:29.270 --> 00:34:31.800
And in a very, very few states,
there can be caps on

00:34:31.800 --> 00:34:34.610
the entire amount that
a plaintiff can get.

00:34:34.610 --> 00:34:36.985
- Economic damages, you can
think about those as your out

00:34:36.985 --> 00:34:40.020
of pocket costs; they're your
health care expenses, your

00:34:40.020 --> 00:34:41.400
lost wages.

00:34:41.400 --> 00:34:45.850
And non-economic damages are for
pain, suffering, the loss

00:34:45.850 --> 00:34:49.219
of enjoyment of life, the harm
that's been done to them that

00:34:49.219 --> 00:34:52.179
is difficult to measure
in money.

00:34:52.179 --> 00:34:53.409
- But there needs to be some
reason when it comes to

00:34:53.409 --> 00:34:56.630
non-economic damages in the
system, and that's why I

00:34:56.630 --> 00:35:00.340
proposed a hard cap
of $250,000 on

00:35:00.340 --> 00:35:01.590
non-economic damages.

00:35:05.150 --> 00:35:07.580
- I think a cap on non-economic
damages of

00:35:07.580 --> 00:35:11.600
$250,000 makes some sense for
most of the states in the

00:35:11.600 --> 00:35:14.580
United States, because they're
such a soft and squishy type

00:35:14.580 --> 00:35:18.230
of damages, and difficult to
determine, I think that makes

00:35:18.230 --> 00:35:18.990
some sense.

00:35:18.990 --> 00:35:23.850
- It's an arbitrary number that
bears no relationship to

00:35:23.850 --> 00:35:26.480
the harm that the plaintiff
suffered.

00:35:26.480 --> 00:35:29.780
And also, it has a
disproportionate impact on

00:35:29.780 --> 00:35:31.810
people in certain situations.

00:35:31.810 --> 00:35:34.570
- If you've been blinded,
permanently disabled,

00:35:34.570 --> 00:35:37.570
disfigured in some way, or
you're a woman and your

00:35:37.570 --> 00:35:41.180
reproductive system has been
harmed in some way, those

00:35:41.180 --> 00:35:45.320
injuries are non-economic in
nature, and someone deserves

00:35:45.320 --> 00:35:46.830
to be compensated for that.

00:35:49.502 --> 00:35:50.510
- Colin?

00:35:50.510 --> 00:35:51.760
Colin.

00:35:54.390 --> 00:35:56.920
- They're identical twins, but
there's nothing really very

00:35:56.920 --> 00:35:58.190
identical about them.

00:35:58.190 --> 00:36:00.850
I mean, Connor's pretty
much a normal boy.

00:36:00.850 --> 00:36:07.790
He grew up and played baseball
and soccer and just what boys

00:36:07.790 --> 00:36:08.580
normally do.

00:36:08.580 --> 00:36:11.750
And Colin, on the other hand,
he grew up... his first

00:36:11.750 --> 00:36:13.390
surgery I think was
when he was...

00:36:13.390 --> 00:36:13.900
was he one or two?

00:36:13.900 --> 00:36:14.390
- One.

00:36:14.390 --> 00:36:14.940
- One.

00:36:14.940 --> 00:36:16.685
He had to have eye surgery.

00:36:16.685 --> 00:36:20.150
- There was optical nerve damage
in the brain injury.

00:36:20.150 --> 00:36:21.390
- It was part of the
brain injury.

00:36:21.390 --> 00:36:24.886
So he doesn't see real well.

00:36:24.886 --> 00:36:27.205
And then he started having to
go to therapy when he was

00:36:27.205 --> 00:36:29.205
about two, I think we started
taking him to therapy.

00:36:29.205 --> 00:36:29.670
- Mmm-hmm

00:36:29.670 --> 00:36:31.580
- And that was pretty
intense...

00:36:31.580 --> 00:36:33.980
and they finally got him to
where he could hold his head

00:36:33.980 --> 00:36:35.880
up, and then where
he could sit up.

00:36:35.880 --> 00:36:38.900
And then as he grew older, he's

00:36:38.900 --> 00:36:42.520
obviously mentally delayed.

00:36:42.520 --> 00:36:44.220
- He didn't even know the
days of the week.

00:36:47.380 --> 00:36:52.150
- The jury heard the evidence,
and they said, "OK, well, $5.6

00:36:52.150 --> 00:36:54.510
million I think is probably
what he needs."

00:36:54.510 --> 00:36:55.610
And that was close.

00:36:55.610 --> 00:36:56.670
We could have made that work.

00:36:56.670 --> 00:36:58.990
I mean, that would have been
enough money that, we'd have

00:36:58.990 --> 00:37:02.060
people to take care of him if
we're gone, or whatever.

00:37:02.060 --> 00:37:04.190
He'd have been OK for the
rest of his life.

00:37:04.190 --> 00:37:07.680
And then the cap comes in and
says "No, no, no, no.

00:37:07.680 --> 00:37:09.460
That's not right.

00:37:09.460 --> 00:37:12.570
You get this amount of money,
and then pay your lawyers out

00:37:12.570 --> 00:37:16.490
of that, and pay some medical
bills." And so Colin ends up

00:37:16.490 --> 00:37:18.030
with a few hundred
thousand dollars.

00:37:18.030 --> 00:37:23.030
And so what happens is then he
goes on the Medicaid, and the

00:37:23.030 --> 00:37:26.430
taxpayers have to pick up
the bill for his care.

00:37:26.430 --> 00:37:27.921
- Dad.

00:37:27.921 --> 00:37:28.420
Dad.

00:37:28.420 --> 00:37:29.260
- What?

00:37:29.260 --> 00:37:30.510
- It's falling apart.

00:37:30.510 --> 00:37:31.916
- It is?

00:37:31.916 --> 00:37:33.462
Is it getting your
hand all dirty?

00:37:33.462 --> 00:37:35.430
- No.

00:37:35.430 --> 00:37:36.350
- Oh, it is broke.

00:37:36.350 --> 00:37:37.730
Look at that.

00:37:37.730 --> 00:37:39.720
- It's not just an
economic need.

00:37:39.720 --> 00:37:41.930
There are moral issues
involved here.

00:37:41.930 --> 00:37:45.250
And what a cap does is it
relieves the wrongdoer --

00:37:45.250 --> 00:37:48.570
often a company or a health
care provider --

00:37:48.570 --> 00:37:51.510
of the responsibility
they have for the

00:37:51.510 --> 00:37:53.950
damage that they caused.

00:37:53.950 --> 00:37:56.470
- Medical groups like the
Nebraska Medical Association

00:37:56.470 --> 00:37:59.310
applauded the Nebraska Supreme
Court's decision Friday.

00:37:59.310 --> 00:38:01.870
They say it will keep
malpractice insurance costs

00:38:01.870 --> 00:38:04.110
down for doctors, and that,
in turn, will keep

00:38:04.110 --> 00:38:05.530
down medical costs.

00:38:05.530 --> 00:38:08.970
- When states enact caps on
damages, doctor's insurance

00:38:08.970 --> 00:38:12.360
premiums typically
do not go down.

00:38:12.360 --> 00:38:15.860
- And it's interesting that when
these various limitations

00:38:15.860 --> 00:38:21.260
are enacted in various states,
there's never a requirement

00:38:21.260 --> 00:38:24.770
that the insurance companies
pass any savings along to the

00:38:24.770 --> 00:38:25.470
policyholder.

00:38:25.470 --> 00:38:28.690
- The insurance companies are
charging still, I think, a lot

00:38:28.690 --> 00:38:30.990
of money to doctors in Nebraska,
and they're not

00:38:30.990 --> 00:38:33.120
having to pay out very much
money in Nebraska.

00:38:33.120 --> 00:38:34.280
So they're making...

00:38:34.280 --> 00:38:36.310
it's their little pot of gold.

00:38:36.310 --> 00:38:40.030
- The insurance industry says,
"Well, don't look at us.

00:38:40.030 --> 00:38:41.990
It's not our fault that
rates are going up.

00:38:41.990 --> 00:38:45.320
It's all those juries and judges
and lawyers and victims

00:38:45.320 --> 00:38:46.700
that are suing us.

00:38:46.700 --> 00:38:48.810
It's all their fault."

00:38:48.810 --> 00:38:53.070
- Those excessive jury awards
cost us all money, and it's

00:38:53.070 --> 00:38:58.210
part of why there's rising cost
in the health care...

00:38:58.210 --> 00:38:59.370
health care system.

00:38:59.370 --> 00:39:02.330
- If it was true that medical
malpractice litigation

00:39:02.330 --> 00:39:05.300
actually drove up health care
costs, then we would expect

00:39:05.300 --> 00:39:08.510
that since 2003, when basically
no patient was

00:39:08.510 --> 00:39:11.070
allowed to hold a doctor or
hospital accountable anymore

00:39:11.070 --> 00:39:14.280
in Texas, we would expect that
health care costs, health care

00:39:14.280 --> 00:39:15.870
spending, would go down.

00:39:15.870 --> 00:39:17.490
Well, in fact, the
opposite is true.

00:39:17.490 --> 00:39:20.090
Health care spending has been
going up in Texas at a rate

00:39:20.090 --> 00:39:22.920
higher than the national average
since we restricted

00:39:22.920 --> 00:39:24.930
patients' rights to access
the courthouse.

00:39:24.930 --> 00:39:27.635
So the myth just doesn't
jive with reality.

00:39:30.190 --> 00:39:32.720
- Over these years, there's a
whole lot of things that I

00:39:32.720 --> 00:39:36.450
want to say about caps,
and to say just how

00:39:36.450 --> 00:39:37.700
they've affected us...

00:39:40.112 --> 00:39:40.920
I don't know.

00:39:40.920 --> 00:39:43.630
It doesn't really hit the nail
on the head so much.

00:39:43.630 --> 00:39:45.230
I mean, it affected
us, obviously.

00:39:45.230 --> 00:39:51.780
We have a son who will never
be able to grow up and earn

00:39:51.780 --> 00:39:53.870
his own living, never go
off to college, never

00:39:53.870 --> 00:39:55.600
have his own family.

00:39:55.600 --> 00:39:58.210
He will require care for
the rest of his life.

00:39:58.210 --> 00:40:00.860
And so how does the
cap affect you?

00:40:00.860 --> 00:40:05.730
It makes his future unknown.

00:40:05.730 --> 00:40:09.730
I mean, you have this person
that you're responsible for

00:40:09.730 --> 00:40:14.950
and that you love that you don't
know if you're gone,

00:40:14.950 --> 00:40:16.200
what's going to happen to him.

00:40:18.770 --> 00:40:22.370
I mean, if it's your child,
take your child and say,

00:40:22.370 --> 00:40:25.150
you're gone, and give them to
the state and let the state do

00:40:25.150 --> 00:40:25.870
whatever they want with them.

00:40:25.870 --> 00:40:29.260
And is that what you want
for your child?

00:40:29.260 --> 00:40:32.020
That's not what I want for my
child, especially when your

00:40:32.020 --> 00:40:34.690
child can't ever grow up and
take care of themselves.

00:40:34.690 --> 00:40:38.850
They're relying on people
to take care of them.

00:40:38.850 --> 00:40:41.810
So that's how the
cap affects you.

00:40:41.810 --> 00:40:42.650
- I know that.

00:40:42.650 --> 00:40:44.000
- Do you want to come
to the table?

00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:45.350
- No.

00:40:45.350 --> 00:40:49.110
- In many respects, these laws
violate state constitutional

00:40:49.110 --> 00:40:51.270
provisions that protect
people's rights.

00:40:51.270 --> 00:40:55.740
And in order to protect those
new laws against challenge in

00:40:55.740 --> 00:40:58.640
the courts, the business
community decided that it was

00:40:58.640 --> 00:41:04.310
important to them to stack the
deck in their favor with the

00:41:04.310 --> 00:41:05.960
Supreme Courts of
various states.

00:41:05.960 --> 00:41:08.680
They wanted their own set of
judges who would be deciding

00:41:08.680 --> 00:41:10.720
whether these restrictions
on people's

00:41:10.720 --> 00:41:12.370
rights would be upheld.

00:41:30.130 --> 00:41:30.775
- Watch out, Snick.

00:41:30.775 --> 00:41:32.025
Watch out, Snickers.

00:41:36.050 --> 00:41:38.700
My Grisham books, some
of them, anyway.

00:41:41.310 --> 00:41:42.810
This was written
two years ago.

00:41:42.810 --> 00:41:45.470
John decided to write
The Appeal.

00:41:45.470 --> 00:41:48.920
And he talked to me about it
because he wanted me to help

00:41:48.920 --> 00:41:51.140
him get the details
right in the book.

00:41:51.140 --> 00:41:53.650
He likes the books
to be accurate.

00:41:53.650 --> 00:41:55.450
It's interesting, because
it's about...

00:41:55.450 --> 00:41:58.170
it sort of tracks what
I went through.

00:41:58.170 --> 00:42:00.230
It's about a Mississippi Supreme
Court Justice running

00:42:00.230 --> 00:42:05.440
for re-election and being
attacked by these out of state

00:42:05.440 --> 00:42:08.200
big business interest groups
that are coming in trying to

00:42:08.200 --> 00:42:11.490
defeat the incumbent Supreme
Court Justice so that they can

00:42:11.490 --> 00:42:15.530
get their corporate interests
on the court.

00:42:15.530 --> 00:42:19.060
So, yeah.

00:42:19.060 --> 00:42:23.240
- As the legislature would try
to effect tort reform, if it

00:42:23.240 --> 00:42:26.420
did get into law, then it came
down to the courts to decide

00:42:26.420 --> 00:42:28.730
whether or not that law
was constitutional.

00:42:28.730 --> 00:42:30.730
And there started to be
decisions around the country

00:42:30.730 --> 00:42:32.630
that said that these were
not constitutional, that

00:42:32.630 --> 00:42:34.360
they went too far.

00:42:34.360 --> 00:42:37.950
- So then the businesses decide,
well, we can't pass

00:42:37.950 --> 00:42:38.590
those laws.

00:42:38.590 --> 00:42:42.010
What we can do is to try and
have judges who decide these

00:42:42.010 --> 00:42:45.790
cases be really conservative,
business-oriented judges.

00:42:45.790 --> 00:42:48.140
- Karl Rove developed this
plan and worked with the

00:42:48.140 --> 00:42:51.620
Chamber of Commerce to influence
the outcome of key

00:42:51.620 --> 00:42:53.355
judicial races around
the country.

00:42:53.355 --> 00:42:56.530
And they put in place a pretty
aggressive campaign, ranking

00:42:56.530 --> 00:42:58.525
which states are most important
for them to be in,

00:42:58.525 --> 00:43:00.940
and putting tens of millions of
dollars a year into these

00:43:00.940 --> 00:43:04.000
elections that often had
tiny amounts of money.

00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:07.510
- I started getting calls from
Karl in the middle to late

00:43:07.510 --> 00:43:12.230
1980s as he began his work
representing, at the

00:43:12.230 --> 00:43:15.990
beginning, state Supreme Court
candidates in Texas.

00:43:15.990 --> 00:43:19.340
Rove was able to put together
a franchise, basically, to

00:43:19.340 --> 00:43:24.100
elect Republicans who he was
representing, with a guarantee

00:43:24.100 --> 00:43:27.040
that they would have
well-financed races and the

00:43:27.040 --> 00:43:30.050
business interests got Supreme
Court judges who were going to

00:43:30.050 --> 00:43:35.180
rule their way on business
cases and on tort cases.

00:43:35.180 --> 00:43:38.300
By the time you reach the
1990s, this core of

00:43:38.300 --> 00:43:42.730
conservative, Republican,
tort-minded judges were ruling

00:43:42.730 --> 00:43:45.480
overwhelmingly for some of
the largest corporate

00:43:45.480 --> 00:43:46.920
interests in Texas.

00:43:52.090 --> 00:43:54.520
- It's a model that
they used and they

00:43:54.520 --> 00:43:56.070
exported to other states.

00:43:56.070 --> 00:43:57.530
- It's a good payoff.

00:43:57.530 --> 00:43:58.250
It's a good payoff.

00:43:58.250 --> 00:44:01.760
You put money in a judicial
race, you spend $100,000 to

00:44:01.760 --> 00:44:05.610
help challenge a judicial
candidate, it can have

00:44:05.610 --> 00:44:07.340
literally a million-dollar
impact on your company.

00:44:07.340 --> 00:44:10.410
- And it seems that that's
happening more and more

00:44:10.410 --> 00:44:11.650
throughout the country...

00:44:11.650 --> 00:44:16.610
that our state Supreme Courts
are reversing civil juries in

00:44:16.610 --> 00:44:20.320
this country at an unprecedented
level after

00:44:20.320 --> 00:44:23.146
seeing the gifts of millions
of dollars.

00:44:23.146 --> 00:44:26.810
- Last week, the Supreme Court
reversed a century of law that

00:44:26.810 --> 00:44:29.490
I believe will open the
floodgates for special

00:44:29.490 --> 00:44:33.560
interests, including foreign
corporations, to spend without

00:44:33.560 --> 00:44:35.504
limit in our elections.

00:44:47.654 --> 00:44:51.130
- If you get five people in our
state, we have nine, so

00:44:51.130 --> 00:44:52.750
the majority is five.

00:44:52.750 --> 00:44:56.720
You get five judges that have
that persuasion to be always

00:44:56.720 --> 00:45:01.440
with the doctors or be always
with corporations, you have

00:45:01.440 --> 00:45:02.900
court reform.

00:45:02.900 --> 00:45:06.320
And that is more deadly
than tort reform ever

00:45:06.320 --> 00:45:07.730
thought about being.

00:45:07.730 --> 00:45:10.895
That's what this Karl Rove
chamber is about.

00:45:10.895 --> 00:45:13.610
And they came into these
Southern states, and

00:45:13.610 --> 00:45:16.420
Mississippi was a good state
to take on, because it's a

00:45:16.420 --> 00:45:18.940
small state, not much money.

00:45:18.940 --> 00:45:23.460
And the US Chamber put in
candidates that were friendly

00:45:23.460 --> 00:45:24.340
towards them.

00:45:24.340 --> 00:45:27.990
And they were able to elect all
of them except for one,

00:45:27.990 --> 00:45:32.120
and that was Oliver
Diaz's election.

00:45:32.120 --> 00:45:34.090
- The Appeal was a
book I published.

00:45:34.090 --> 00:45:34.970
It's a novel.

00:45:34.970 --> 00:45:38.600
It's completely fiction, and
it's completely true.

00:45:38.600 --> 00:45:43.230
It's a story of the purchasing
of a Supreme Court seat in

00:45:43.230 --> 00:45:44.802
Mississippi.

00:45:44.802 --> 00:45:48.950
I felt like I kind of lived
through it with Oliver,

00:45:48.950 --> 00:45:50.270
because he was my friend, I knew
what he'd gone through.

00:45:59.430 --> 00:46:02.235
- I was born and raised in
Biloxi, Mississippi.

00:46:02.235 --> 00:46:06.290
I lived there all of my life,
and then went to law school.

00:46:06.290 --> 00:46:08.900
And then after law school, I
came back home and started

00:46:08.900 --> 00:46:10.270
practicing law there.

00:46:10.270 --> 00:46:14.140
And in 1987, I was elected to
the Mississippi House of

00:46:14.140 --> 00:46:16.760
Representatives and started
a career in

00:46:16.760 --> 00:46:18.034
politics at that point.

00:46:18.034 --> 00:46:20.010
- I was his campaign manager.

00:46:29.400 --> 00:46:32.590
- You had these interest groups
that were interested in

00:46:32.590 --> 00:46:36.530
electing judges that they deemed
to be pro-business.

00:46:36.530 --> 00:46:40.380
I was not deemed to be
pro-business, and the US

00:46:40.380 --> 00:46:43.720
Chamber mounted a very, very
large and expensive campaign

00:46:43.720 --> 00:46:45.816
against me in 2000.

00:46:45.816 --> 00:46:49.070
- Diaz even voted to overturn
a cocaine conviction because

00:46:49.070 --> 00:46:52.162
evidence of a prior cocaine
sale was allowed.

00:46:52.162 --> 00:46:55.470
Oliver Diaz: very
bad judgement.

00:46:55.470 --> 00:46:57.885
- The negative ads are still
running, and that

00:46:57.885 --> 00:46:59.210
part has not changed.

00:46:59.210 --> 00:47:01.260
The ads are still on
the television.

00:47:01.260 --> 00:47:02.400
It's a terrible situation.

00:47:02.400 --> 00:47:04.490
- It is demeaning
to the office.

00:47:04.490 --> 00:47:05.520
It is improper.

00:47:05.520 --> 00:47:06.870
It should not have happened.

00:47:06.870 --> 00:47:09.710
I've told Judge Diaz that
I've done all I can do

00:47:09.710 --> 00:47:11.160
to get those stopped.

00:47:11.160 --> 00:47:11.990
I don't like it.

00:47:11.990 --> 00:47:14.550
- My opponent, who was supported
by the US Chamber of

00:47:14.550 --> 00:47:18.450
Commerce, he had probably a
million dollars spent on his

00:47:18.450 --> 00:47:20.560
behalf, which was not even...

00:47:20.560 --> 00:47:23.420
it was more than a million
dollars, spent on his behalf,

00:47:23.420 --> 00:47:26.370
but it wasn't in his name, and
he didn't report that on his

00:47:26.370 --> 00:47:28.040
campaign finance reports.

00:47:28.040 --> 00:47:31.000
- You know. people think, oh,
the US Chamber of Commerce.

00:47:31.000 --> 00:47:34.480
They think of it representing
small chambers

00:47:34.480 --> 00:47:35.920
on a national scale.

00:47:35.920 --> 00:47:38.932
That really isn't what the US
Chamber of Commerce is.

00:47:38.932 --> 00:47:41.070
- So what's the US Chamber
of Commerce?

00:47:41.070 --> 00:47:42.765
- Um, I'm not really sure.

00:47:42.765 --> 00:47:45.740
Something doing with
the government.

00:47:45.740 --> 00:47:49.900
- It was my understanding that
it was a government agency but

00:47:49.900 --> 00:47:50.970
I'm not sure of that.

00:47:50.970 --> 00:47:55.000
- Probably they are
engaged in, hmm...

00:47:55.000 --> 00:47:58.820
managing something.

00:47:58.820 --> 00:47:59.550
- Trade?

00:47:59.550 --> 00:48:02.585
Do they engage in managing trade
throughout the United

00:48:02.585 --> 00:48:02.790
States?

00:48:02.790 --> 00:48:04.040
- I'd go with that.

00:48:26.240 --> 00:48:30.220
- The US Chamber of Commerce
became a very, very important

00:48:30.220 --> 00:48:32.360
player in the tort
reform movement.

00:48:32.360 --> 00:48:36.260
And they have now been shown
to be funneling money into

00:48:36.260 --> 00:48:37.570
judicial campaigns.

00:48:37.570 --> 00:48:40.380
- Here's the way campaigns
happen, OK?

00:48:40.380 --> 00:48:44.730
You have your doctors,
hospitals, manufacturers,

00:48:44.730 --> 00:48:45.700
insurance companies.

00:48:45.700 --> 00:48:47.710
You've got all those folks kind
of quarterbacked by the

00:48:47.710 --> 00:48:48.550
Chamber of Commerce.

00:48:48.550 --> 00:48:49.840
That's where the money is.

00:48:49.840 --> 00:48:51.380
There's nobody on
the other side,

00:48:51.380 --> 00:48:52.920
except the trial lawyers.

00:48:52.920 --> 00:48:55.650
Because the trial lawyers know
the law, and they know what's

00:48:55.650 --> 00:48:58.490
going to happen if these
judges are elected.

00:48:58.490 --> 00:49:00.640
- We were playing by a
certain set of rules.

00:49:00.640 --> 00:49:04.840
There were campaign finance
laws that you had to know

00:49:04.840 --> 00:49:06.390
where the money was
coming from.

00:49:06.390 --> 00:49:09.827
And there were limits on some of
the amounts of money by who

00:49:09.827 --> 00:49:10.060
gave it.

00:49:10.060 --> 00:49:12.440
- The trial lawyers are limited
as to how much money

00:49:12.440 --> 00:49:13.540
they can put in.

00:49:13.540 --> 00:49:17.030
If you give more than
$5,000, a judge

00:49:17.030 --> 00:49:18.520
can't sit on your case.

00:49:18.520 --> 00:49:21.310
Whereas if the money comes from
the Chamber, all that

00:49:21.310 --> 00:49:23.710
money was packaged into a large
group, and there's no

00:49:23.710 --> 00:49:26.580
way that you can see who
were the contributors.

00:49:26.580 --> 00:49:29.480
- The Chamber puts in millions
of dollars into state races

00:49:29.480 --> 00:49:32.250
through some kind of a front
group; Citizens for a Strong

00:49:32.250 --> 00:49:34.790
Ohio or Partnership for Ohio.

00:49:34.790 --> 00:49:38.350
Groups that sound like they're
citizens' groups, but in fact

00:49:38.350 --> 00:49:42.418
are really business groups
hiding behind a false veneer.

00:49:42.418 --> 00:49:45.052
- We're doing much, much better
in courts and in the

00:49:45.052 --> 00:49:48.560
election of judges to the
state Supreme Courts.

00:49:48.560 --> 00:49:49.830
We're in those races.

00:49:49.830 --> 00:49:54.524
We'll spend $19 million in the
election of those judges and

00:49:54.524 --> 00:49:56.250
state attorneys general
in this next election.

00:50:04.030 --> 00:50:05.320
- They spent so much
money against us.

00:50:05.320 --> 00:50:09.160
They would run almost every 15
to 20 minutes on TV, on our

00:50:09.160 --> 00:50:10.240
local station.

00:50:10.240 --> 00:50:12.980
So we got to where we just
didn't have the TVs on.

00:50:12.980 --> 00:50:13.750
And all of a sudden,
one morning...

00:50:13.750 --> 00:50:15.390
- We didn't want the kids to
see these horrible ads.

00:50:15.390 --> 00:50:15.965
- We didn't want them
to see them.

00:50:15.965 --> 00:50:18.590
Because some of the ads actually
had big money bags

00:50:18.590 --> 00:50:21.240
being thrown up on a bench, that
he was bought and paid

00:50:21.240 --> 00:50:21.690
for.

00:50:21.690 --> 00:50:23.091
- Diaz has generous friends.

00:50:23.091 --> 00:50:27.063
Diaz's campaign took over
$100,000 from personal injury

00:50:27.063 --> 00:50:27.670
lawyers who...

00:50:27.670 --> 00:50:30.970
- And so one morning, we hear
just, "Woo hoo!" And our

00:50:30.970 --> 00:50:32.920
daughter is just like,
cheering downstairs.

00:50:32.920 --> 00:50:35.930
And we come down, and she's
like, "We're rich!

00:50:35.930 --> 00:50:38.990
We're rich!" And she'd seen the
ad with the big bags of

00:50:38.990 --> 00:50:42.000
money on the bench, and
her daddy's name.

00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:46.080
- The game plan was to pick
out a Justice, try to make

00:50:46.080 --> 00:50:50.440
that Justice look soft on crime,
take snippets from

00:50:50.440 --> 00:50:53.480
decisions that the Justice had
made, manipulate those

00:50:53.480 --> 00:50:56.640
decisions to make them seem
absolutely outrageous and

00:50:56.640 --> 00:51:01.940
ridiculous, and spend a lot of
money to get that message out

00:51:01.940 --> 00:51:03.060
to the voters.

00:51:03.060 --> 00:51:06.530
The amount of money that's
spent on television in a

00:51:06.530 --> 00:51:08.260
political campaign
has an enormous

00:51:08.260 --> 00:51:09.440
effect on the outcome.

00:51:09.440 --> 00:51:13.500
And in fact in 2000, the
statistics showed that the

00:51:13.500 --> 00:51:17.420
side that spent the most money
won about 90% of the time.

00:51:24.446 --> 00:51:28.450
- We had two weeks until we had
run again for a runoff,

00:51:28.450 --> 00:51:32.490
and we find out that the US
Chamber had literally almost

00:51:32.490 --> 00:51:35.780
purchased all of the available
air time that there was

00:51:35.780 --> 00:51:38.580
available from Jackson to
Biloxi, Mississippi.

00:51:38.580 --> 00:51:40.660
- And what we had to do at the
time was actually take out

00:51:40.660 --> 00:51:43.000
loans to finance the campaign.

00:51:43.000 --> 00:51:47.120
And if you're familiar with
banking at all, they generally

00:51:47.120 --> 00:51:50.100
don't like to loan
money to folks

00:51:50.100 --> 00:51:51.650
who may lose an election.

00:51:51.650 --> 00:51:54.780
So you have to have somebody
with money that co-signs on

00:51:54.780 --> 00:51:55.510
your behalf.

00:51:55.510 --> 00:51:58.850
And my very good friend Paul
Minor was willing to step up

00:51:58.850 --> 00:52:03.190
and sign a loan at the bank to
allow us to compete with the

00:52:03.190 --> 00:52:05.600
US Chamber's ads that were
running at the time.

00:52:05.600 --> 00:52:07.140
Keith Starrett's special
interest group from

00:52:07.140 --> 00:52:09.350
Washington, DC, recently started
attacking me and

00:52:09.350 --> 00:52:10.790
distorting my record.

00:52:10.790 --> 00:52:14.560
I refuse to be negative, but
I must defend my record.

00:52:14.560 --> 00:52:16.940
- I still don't know how we did
it to this very day, but

00:52:16.940 --> 00:52:19.850
we actually won that election.

00:52:19.850 --> 00:52:23.450
I really honestly thought when
we won and celebrated that

00:52:23.450 --> 00:52:26.130
election, we had thought that
was a good day, and it turned

00:52:26.130 --> 00:52:29.700
out to be probably one of the
worst days of our life, the

00:52:29.700 --> 00:52:30.950
election was.

00:52:33.280 --> 00:52:38.950
- Federal prosecutors decided to
investigate me and used the

00:52:38.950 --> 00:52:41.420
loans that Paul Minor had
co-signed at the bank and

00:52:41.420 --> 00:52:44.020
called that a bribe,
and said that he'd

00:52:44.020 --> 00:52:45.850
bribed me as a judge.

00:52:45.850 --> 00:52:50.220
But what's really interesting
about that is I never voted

00:52:50.220 --> 00:52:53.980
for a single case in which Paul
Minor or his law firm or

00:52:53.980 --> 00:52:57.450
anybody he was associated with
had brought before the Supreme

00:52:57.450 --> 00:52:59.700
Court because of
our friendship.

00:52:59.700 --> 00:53:03.540
- And then that summer,
Oliver was indicted.

00:53:03.540 --> 00:53:08.090
And it just kind of started
spiraling downhill from there.

00:53:08.090 --> 00:53:10.620
I almost kind of didn't
believe Oliver.

00:53:10.620 --> 00:53:12.510
I said, "There has to
be something here.

00:53:12.510 --> 00:53:14.100
You're not telling
me the truth.

00:53:14.100 --> 00:53:15.850
They wouldn't bring
these charges

00:53:15.850 --> 00:53:17.700
against us and do this.

00:53:17.700 --> 00:53:20.840
All these counts you're facing,
100 and some years in

00:53:20.840 --> 00:53:22.110
the federal penitentiary.

00:53:22.110 --> 00:53:22.560
We have two...

00:53:22.560 --> 00:53:24.030
- Millions of dollars
in fines.

00:53:24.030 --> 00:53:25.016
- Millions of dollars
in fines.

00:53:25.016 --> 00:53:27.940
We have two small children.

00:53:27.940 --> 00:53:30.520
- Oliver Diaz says the charges
against him are groundless,

00:53:30.520 --> 00:53:33.720
because he withdrew from all
cases involving Paul Minor.

00:53:33.720 --> 00:53:36.300
Diaz is on leave from the
Supreme Court until the case

00:53:36.300 --> 00:53:37.580
is resolved.

00:53:37.580 --> 00:53:41.260
- The decision to prosecute
Justice Diaz may have been

00:53:41.260 --> 00:53:44.210
motivated by tort
reform politics.

00:53:44.210 --> 00:53:49.040
It may have been motivated by
an effort to remove Justice

00:53:49.040 --> 00:53:52.450
Diaz from the Supreme Court,
where he often voted for

00:53:52.450 --> 00:53:55.270
ordinary citizens and against
corporations.

00:53:55.270 --> 00:53:59.910
But it certainly was not a
prosecution that was based on

00:53:59.910 --> 00:54:03.645
the evidence, because the
evidence did not support it.

00:54:03.645 --> 00:54:05.560
- Do you think that Oliver
was prosecuted

00:54:05.560 --> 00:54:08.030
for political reasons?

00:54:08.030 --> 00:54:09.300
- Sure.

00:54:09.300 --> 00:54:11.310
I don't think there's any
doubt about that.

00:54:11.310 --> 00:54:13.520
- We thought we were just
targeted, and this was just us

00:54:13.520 --> 00:54:16.410
and this political prosecution
was just us.

00:54:16.410 --> 00:54:18.520
We have later found out that
this happened all over the

00:54:18.520 --> 00:54:22.010
country, and those other
judges that won or were

00:54:22.010 --> 00:54:26.400
successful were also targeted.

00:54:26.400 --> 00:54:29.900
- After a three-month trial, I
was completely acquitted of

00:54:29.900 --> 00:54:30.690
all charges.

00:54:30.690 --> 00:54:34.380
A jury returned not guilty
verdicts on everything.

00:54:34.380 --> 00:54:40.620
But three days after my trial,
I was re-indicted on tax

00:54:40.620 --> 00:54:41.810
evasion charges.

00:54:41.810 --> 00:54:45.330
So I had to go through another
federal trial after that first

00:54:45.330 --> 00:54:48.620
three-month trial, and had a
week-long trial this time on

00:54:48.620 --> 00:54:49.540
tax charges.

00:54:49.540 --> 00:54:53.430
And after a 15-minute
deliberation time by the jury,

00:54:53.430 --> 00:54:56.370
I was fully acquitted
a second time.

00:54:56.370 --> 00:54:58.940
And I was finally cleared to
return to the bench, but not

00:54:58.940 --> 00:55:01.780
after I had been removed
from the bench for

00:55:01.780 --> 00:55:04.790
almost three years.

00:55:04.790 --> 00:55:08.060
So what they weren't able to do
through an election, they

00:55:08.060 --> 00:55:10.860
were able to do with a federal
prosecution, a federal

00:55:10.860 --> 00:55:16.080
investigation, to keep me off
the bench, to ruin my

00:55:16.080 --> 00:55:20.980
reputation, to make it that I
probably wouldn't be able to

00:55:20.980 --> 00:55:24.010
be elected again to the
Mississippi Supreme Court.

00:55:24.010 --> 00:55:26.090
- Some other people were elected
who were considered to

00:55:26.090 --> 00:55:30.370
be much more "business friendly"
Justices than had

00:55:30.370 --> 00:55:32.960
served on the court in the years
past, and it really did

00:55:32.960 --> 00:55:34.160
alter things.

00:55:34.160 --> 00:55:37.770
- In Mississippi, after the
court swung, they went like

00:55:37.770 --> 00:55:41.560
two years without upholding
a plaintiff verdict.

00:55:41.560 --> 00:55:44.280
You might be able to win with
the jury, but you have no hope

00:55:44.280 --> 00:55:47.025
of having that verdict sustained
by the court.

00:55:59.780 --> 00:56:03.510
- I think sort of the taint of
these charges, and sort of the

00:56:03.510 --> 00:56:07.070
residue of all of that and the
fact that some people in the

00:56:07.070 --> 00:56:09.730
public simply assumed he was
guilty because he was charged

00:56:09.730 --> 00:56:12.470
of it, caused him to be defeated
for re-election.

00:56:12.470 --> 00:56:18.030
- Also, I was not able to raise
the funds to compete.

00:56:18.030 --> 00:56:20.590
I raised about a quarter of the
amount that I'd raised in

00:56:20.590 --> 00:56:21.780
my first election.

00:56:21.780 --> 00:56:24.870
- If $2 million or $3 million is
being spent or $10 million

00:56:24.870 --> 00:56:28.790
is being spent, the way it's
going now, in 10 years from

00:56:28.790 --> 00:56:31.910
now, they'll be spending $100
million on judicial elections.

00:56:31.910 --> 00:56:39.000
And it's not really a good way
to have the system work.

00:56:39.000 --> 00:56:40.680
And there's many people in the
business community who don't

00:56:40.680 --> 00:56:41.930
agree with me on that.

00:57:08.600 --> 00:57:10.240
- Can you tell us why you're
here today, at this reform

00:57:10.240 --> 00:57:10.730
summit?

00:57:10.730 --> 00:57:15.110
- We're here to receive the
Leadership Achievement Award.

00:57:15.110 --> 00:57:15.900
- Oh, for what?

00:57:15.900 --> 00:57:21.210
- For passing a 208-page civil
justice reform law in Oklahoma

00:57:21.210 --> 00:57:23.830
that is going to take the
bullseye off the back of

00:57:23.830 --> 00:57:25.200
business in our state.

00:57:25.200 --> 00:57:26.460
- What does that
mean, exactly?

00:57:26.460 --> 00:57:27.800
- It means that we're protecting
our businesses from

00:57:27.800 --> 00:57:29.140
frivolous lawsuits.

00:57:29.140 --> 00:57:30.870
- And do you think there are a
lot of frivolous lawsuits?

00:57:30.870 --> 00:57:31.440
- There are.

00:57:31.440 --> 00:57:34.490
And we think that there's a
definite cost to the medical

00:57:34.490 --> 00:57:37.380
profession and the cost of doing
business, where we have

00:57:37.380 --> 00:57:40.860
to protect companies that are
now doing business in our

00:57:40.860 --> 00:57:43.530
country from that kind
of invasiveness.

00:57:43.530 --> 00:57:45.460
- And so who brings these
frivolous lawsuits?

00:57:45.460 --> 00:57:46.050
- All kinds of people.

00:57:46.050 --> 00:57:48.850
People that are "jackpot
justice" oriented.

00:57:48.850 --> 00:57:50.220
- Do you think tort reform
is a good thing for

00:57:50.220 --> 00:57:51.370
the American public?

00:57:51.370 --> 00:57:52.010
- Without a doubt.

00:57:52.010 --> 00:57:53.460
- Why is that?

00:57:53.460 --> 00:57:57.766
- There's just an incredible
amount of frivolous lawsuits,

00:57:57.766 --> 00:58:05.362
and it directly impacts
everything from health care to

00:58:05.362 --> 00:58:09.250
prices in stores, small
businesses.

00:58:09.250 --> 00:58:10.730
It's extremely important.

00:58:10.730 --> 00:58:13.240
- And where do you work
or what do you do?

00:58:13.240 --> 00:58:14.700
- I am a lawyer.

00:58:14.700 --> 00:58:16.260
- OK, and with a
law firm, or...

00:58:16.260 --> 00:58:16.616
- No.

00:58:16.616 --> 00:58:17.330
In-house counsel.

00:58:17.330 --> 00:58:19.450
- Oh, for what kind
of company?

00:58:19.450 --> 00:58:20.570
- Um, Pfizer Pharmaceuticals.

00:58:20.570 --> 00:58:23.104
- I think we've just gone too
far, we just have too much

00:58:23.104 --> 00:58:23.950
litigation.

00:58:23.950 --> 00:58:27.280
- And so who benefits from
having less litigation?

00:58:27.280 --> 00:58:29.970
- Everybody, except
the trial lawyers.

00:58:29.970 --> 00:58:30.700
- And how do you...

00:58:30.700 --> 00:58:33.000
do you want to like eliminate
people's rights to go to the

00:58:33.000 --> 00:58:34.930
court system?

00:58:34.930 --> 00:58:37.740
- My own preference would be to
give people rights to sign

00:58:37.740 --> 00:58:40.995
contracts when they buy
products, and so forth, so the

00:58:40.995 --> 00:58:43.800
contracts would determine
what rights they had.

00:58:43.800 --> 00:58:45.780
- These things like the
arbitration clauses that are

00:58:45.780 --> 00:58:46.470
in contacts?

00:58:46.470 --> 00:58:48.030
Like the mandatory arbitration
clauses?

00:58:48.030 --> 00:58:50.652
- Yeah, those are useful
clauses, I think.

00:58:50.652 --> 00:58:54.800
- Sometimes litigation is
harmful to all of us, and

00:58:54.800 --> 00:58:57.972
there are better means to
resolve disputes than through

00:58:57.972 --> 00:58:58.460
the courts.

00:58:58.460 --> 00:58:59.924
You mentioned a few
of them already.

00:58:59.924 --> 00:59:02.038
Arbitration is a very
good one, and

00:59:02.038 --> 00:59:03.340
there are lots of others.

00:59:03.340 --> 00:59:04.484
Uh, but I hope you'll
excuse me.

00:59:04.484 --> 00:59:05.150
I do have to run now.

00:59:05.150 --> 00:59:05.370
- No problem.

00:59:05.370 --> 00:59:05.950
Thank you so much.

00:59:05.950 --> 00:59:07.200
I appreciate it.

00:59:21.460 --> 00:59:22.690
- Did she get any on her head?

00:59:22.690 --> 00:59:25.190
- Yes.

00:59:25.190 --> 00:59:28.260
That doesn't go on your
head, baby girl.

00:59:28.260 --> 00:59:28.670
- Thank you.

00:59:28.670 --> 00:59:29.755
- Silly.

00:59:29.755 --> 00:59:31.987
- You thirsty?

00:59:31.987 --> 00:59:33.454
Do you want a drink, honey?

00:59:33.454 --> 00:59:35.410
- Oh, yeah.

00:59:35.410 --> 00:59:39.322
- Chocolate milk, Coke,
orange juice, milk?

00:59:39.322 --> 00:59:41.767
- Mmm, I'll have Coke.

00:59:41.767 --> 00:59:43.723
- A Coke for breakfast, huh?

00:59:43.723 --> 00:59:44.212
- Uh huh.

00:59:44.212 --> 00:59:46.657
- All right.

00:59:46.657 --> 00:59:47.635
Here we go.

00:59:47.635 --> 00:59:51.080
I'm going to make me
an orange juice.

00:59:51.080 --> 00:59:53.770
- I had never heard of a
mandatory arbitration clause

00:59:53.770 --> 00:59:56.840
before I had signed my
employment contract with

00:59:56.840 --> 00:59:58.760
Halliburton.

00:59:58.760 --> 01:00:04.230
I worked for Halliburton in
Houston, and I wanted to help

01:00:04.230 --> 01:00:06.010
Operation Iraqi Freedom.

01:00:06.010 --> 01:00:08.190
My mom was very sick at
home, so I needed to

01:00:08.190 --> 01:00:09.880
help support her.

01:00:09.880 --> 01:00:13.070
They say it's more likely that
you get in a car wreck than

01:00:13.070 --> 01:00:15.540
something happening
to you in Iraq.

01:00:15.540 --> 01:00:20.640
So as a 19-year-old girl, you
believe your elders, and you

01:00:20.640 --> 01:00:23.390
think that that's
probably true.

01:00:23.390 --> 01:00:24.580
So.

01:00:24.580 --> 01:00:29.270
- Four years ago, at the age of
19, Ms. Jamie Leigh Jones

01:00:29.270 --> 01:00:33.060
signed a contract to become
an employee of KBR, then a

01:00:33.060 --> 01:00:35.450
Halliburton subsidiary.

01:00:35.450 --> 01:00:38.980
That contract contained a clause
which required her to

01:00:38.980 --> 01:00:43.720
arbitrate any future dispute
against her employer.

01:00:43.720 --> 01:00:47.190
This means it forced her to
give up her right to seek

01:00:47.190 --> 01:00:51.030
redress in court if
she was wronged.

01:00:51.030 --> 01:00:56.216
- Mandatory arbitration is
somebody has to be involved in

01:00:56.216 --> 01:00:57.580
the case, isn't it,
or something?

01:00:57.580 --> 01:01:00.340
Because arbitration is
how the case is...

01:01:00.340 --> 01:01:00.770
oh!

01:01:00.770 --> 01:01:04.370
It has nothing to do
with case files.

01:01:04.370 --> 01:01:06.100
- I've heard the two words
used separately.

01:01:06.100 --> 01:01:07.440
- That's right.

01:01:07.440 --> 01:01:10.115
- Businesses use a number of
devices to keep the public out

01:01:10.115 --> 01:01:10.970
of the courts.

01:01:10.970 --> 01:01:13.290
One of the devices they've
used is they've written

01:01:13.290 --> 01:01:16.040
clauses in the contracts
that say that you

01:01:16.040 --> 01:01:17.600
cannot go to court.

01:01:17.600 --> 01:01:19.250
You can only go to
arbitration.

01:01:19.250 --> 01:01:23.390
- What we started to see was,
again and again, our clients

01:01:23.390 --> 01:01:28.040
had been forced to sign in fine
print of contracts these

01:01:28.040 --> 01:01:31.150
mandatory arbitration or forced
arbitration clauses.

01:01:31.150 --> 01:01:32.900
And none of our clients
knew that those

01:01:32.900 --> 01:01:33.800
provisions were there.

01:01:33.800 --> 01:01:36.740
And it was only after we got
hold of their documents that

01:01:36.740 --> 01:01:39.630
we would say to them, "Hey, did
you know you supposedly

01:01:39.630 --> 01:01:42.730
agreed that you are not allowed
to sue the company?

01:01:42.730 --> 01:01:44.900
Do you know that you agreed
that, instead of going to a

01:01:44.900 --> 01:01:48.690
jury, that you have to go to a
private arbitrator who's with

01:01:48.690 --> 01:01:52.030
the company that's picked by the
company who cheated you?"

01:01:52.030 --> 01:01:55.210
- And when you ask people about
binding arbitration, and

01:01:55.210 --> 01:01:58.640
would you knowingly sign away
your rights, they say, "Well,

01:01:58.640 --> 01:02:00.600
of course not." And then you ask
them, "Well, do you have a

01:02:00.600 --> 01:02:01.460
cell phone?

01:02:01.460 --> 01:02:02.760
Do you have a gym membership?

01:02:02.760 --> 01:02:05.140
Do you have a credit card?"

01:02:05.140 --> 01:02:07.790
- Do you know whether you've
ever agreed to mandatory

01:02:07.790 --> 01:02:10.510
arbitration in any
of your contacts?

01:02:10.510 --> 01:02:13.430
- Um, I don't believe
I ever have, no.

01:02:13.430 --> 01:02:15.262
- Do you have a credit card?

01:02:15.262 --> 01:02:16.590
- Well, maybe I have.

01:02:16.590 --> 01:02:18.830
- When you first sign a contract
with a cell phone

01:02:18.830 --> 01:02:21.700
company or a credit card company
or whatnot, there

01:02:21.700 --> 01:02:23.420
won't be any reference
or any mention of

01:02:23.420 --> 01:02:24.840
the arbitration clause.

01:02:24.840 --> 01:02:27.270
But then, at some point, the
company decides to add it.

01:02:27.270 --> 01:02:30.990
So what they do is they send
out, in incredibly tiny print,

01:02:30.990 --> 01:02:33.960
a little booklet that they
stick in with the bill.

01:02:33.960 --> 01:02:37.943
And what almost everybody does
is you look at the bill and

01:02:37.943 --> 01:02:39.310
you throw everything
else away.

01:02:39.310 --> 01:02:42.040
But that's where they send in
the arbitration clause.

01:02:42.040 --> 01:02:45.110
And then what they say is if you
ever use your phone again

01:02:45.110 --> 01:02:47.250
or you ever use your credit
card again, that you've

01:02:47.250 --> 01:02:51.060
supposedly agreed to mandatory
arbitration.

01:02:51.060 --> 01:02:54.260
What's happened in America is
that entire industries have

01:02:54.260 --> 01:02:56.790
all adopted mandatory
arbitration clauses.

01:02:56.790 --> 01:02:59.640
You'll see them in credit card
agreements, checking account

01:02:59.640 --> 01:03:01.860
agreements, lending agreements,
cell phone

01:03:01.860 --> 01:03:04.100
contracts, virtually anything
that's bought over the

01:03:04.100 --> 01:03:07.900
internet, computers, books,
records, virtually all nursing

01:03:07.900 --> 01:03:10.900
homes, nearly every contract
to buy a new car, health

01:03:10.900 --> 01:03:12.100
clubs, tanning salons.

01:03:12.100 --> 01:03:15.500
I have a friend who took her cat
in to be boarded while she

01:03:15.500 --> 01:03:18.320
went on vacation, and the
kennel made her sign a

01:03:18.320 --> 01:03:20.590
mandatory arbitration clause
that if they killed her cat or

01:03:20.590 --> 01:03:23.680
did something horrible to it,
that she couldn't go to court.

01:03:23.680 --> 01:03:24.980
- You have no bargaining
power.

01:03:24.980 --> 01:03:29.310
You as a consumer or a worker
are forced into these things,

01:03:29.310 --> 01:03:31.900
and you really never had
a choice in the matter.

01:03:31.900 --> 01:03:35.100
- Mandatory arbitration is fast
becoming the rule rather

01:03:35.100 --> 01:03:36.290
than the exception.

01:03:36.290 --> 01:03:39.740
The practice of forcing
employees to use arbitration

01:03:39.740 --> 01:03:41.200
has been on the rise.

01:03:41.200 --> 01:03:42.910
- There are several surveys
that show that more than a

01:03:42.910 --> 01:03:47.480
third of the working people in
America are bound to forced

01:03:47.480 --> 01:03:48.890
arbitration clauses.

01:03:48.890 --> 01:03:52.610
In fact, far more American
workers are governed by

01:03:52.610 --> 01:03:55.520
mandatory forced arbitration
clauses than are members of

01:03:55.520 --> 01:03:58.080
unions in modern
America today.

01:04:01.110 --> 01:04:04.080
- I worked for Halliburton in
Houston for a little bit over

01:04:04.080 --> 01:04:06.790
a year before I decided
to go to Iraq.

01:04:06.790 --> 01:04:10.010
When I was in Iraq, Halliburton
and KBR were the

01:04:10.010 --> 01:04:12.600
same company.

01:04:12.600 --> 01:04:16.840
Those that go over to Iraq get
promoted when they come home.

01:04:16.840 --> 01:04:20.870
Also, I mean, my goal was to
just work there forever.

01:04:20.870 --> 01:04:26.000
I was content there until
everything happened.

01:04:26.000 --> 01:04:30.740
I was told that I would be
housed in a little trailer

01:04:30.740 --> 01:04:34.490
house with one female on one
side, another on one side, and

01:04:34.490 --> 01:04:36.760
then a bathroom shared
in the middle.

01:04:36.760 --> 01:04:40.570
And when I got there, I was
perplexed because I was put in

01:04:40.570 --> 01:04:42.520
a predominantly all-male
barrack.

01:04:42.520 --> 01:04:45.250
I didn't see any
females there.

01:04:45.250 --> 01:04:48.950
I emailed some of the managers
that I knew from Houston, and

01:04:48.950 --> 01:04:52.110
I told them that I was concerned
and that I wanted to

01:04:52.110 --> 01:04:55.420
be moved into the living
quarters that I was promised.

01:04:55.420 --> 01:04:59.490
And one guy emailed me back and
just said, "Oh, you'll get

01:04:59.490 --> 01:05:03.380
over it." Men had their doors
open, and some were in boxers,

01:05:03.380 --> 01:05:04.945
and they were cat calling.

01:05:11.940 --> 01:05:15.430
When I woke up, I was
severely beaten.

01:05:15.430 --> 01:05:16.980
My chest was disfigured.

01:05:16.980 --> 01:05:18.320
I was bleeding between
my legs.

01:05:18.320 --> 01:05:19.640
I was naked.

01:05:19.640 --> 01:05:23.170
I washed my hands, and then I
saw the bruises on my wrist.

01:05:23.170 --> 01:05:25.280
And I'm starting to put together
that something major

01:05:25.280 --> 01:05:27.140
happened to my body.

01:05:27.140 --> 01:05:30.180
And then I go back up the
stairs, down the hall, and I

01:05:30.180 --> 01:05:33.780
looked in my room, and there was
a man in the bottom bunk.

01:05:33.780 --> 01:05:36.940
And I don't remember if he
was clothed or anything.

01:05:36.940 --> 01:05:43.350
I was so shocked that bits and
pieces of it are gone from me.

01:05:43.350 --> 01:05:49.370
It was the worst moment of my
entire life to actually see a

01:05:49.370 --> 01:05:51.820
man brazen enough to still
be there in the room

01:05:51.820 --> 01:05:54.630
after raping me.

01:05:54.630 --> 01:05:56.020
And it was really hard.

01:05:56.020 --> 01:05:59.580
And I know now that the reason
why he was still in the room

01:05:59.580 --> 01:06:04.155
was because he would be able
to get away with it.

01:06:04.155 --> 01:06:09.550
I went to seek medical help,
and at the Army doctor, she

01:06:09.550 --> 01:06:15.275
said that I had been penetrated
both vaginally and

01:06:15.275 --> 01:06:19.775
anally, and that the tears down
there were significant.

01:06:31.160 --> 01:06:33.630
- You've heard a lot about
Halliburton lately.

01:06:33.630 --> 01:06:35.200
Criticism is OK.

01:06:35.200 --> 01:06:36.390
We can take it.

01:06:36.390 --> 01:06:38.590
Criticism is not failure.

01:06:38.590 --> 01:06:40.590
Our employees are doing
a great job.

01:06:40.590 --> 01:06:42.480
We're feeding the soldiers.

01:06:42.480 --> 01:06:44.200
We're rebuilding Iraq.

01:06:44.200 --> 01:06:45.440
Will things go wrong?

01:06:45.440 --> 01:06:46.180
Sure they will.

01:06:46.180 --> 01:06:47.550
It's a war zone.

01:06:47.550 --> 01:06:49.790
But when they do,
we'll fix it.

01:06:49.790 --> 01:06:51.350
We always have.

01:06:51.350 --> 01:06:56.430
- So then two KBR security
officers took me to a... it's

01:06:56.430 --> 01:06:59.750
been called a lot of things,
shipping container, trailer.

01:06:59.750 --> 01:07:01.976
But essentially I
was imprisoned.

01:07:01.976 --> 01:07:05.830
There were two armed guards
outside of my door.

01:07:05.830 --> 01:07:09.910
I was begging and pleading
through the door to let me get

01:07:09.910 --> 01:07:10.670
out of there.

01:07:10.670 --> 01:07:12.763
And finally, one of the guards,
out of sympathy, let

01:07:12.763 --> 01:07:14.310
me use his phone.

01:07:14.310 --> 01:07:17.780
And I called my father, and he
contacted Congressman Ted Poe.

01:07:17.780 --> 01:07:19.590
- Well, it was almost
unbelievable.

01:07:19.590 --> 01:07:25.740
Here she is a young, 19-year-old
female, and

01:07:25.740 --> 01:07:30.210
according to her dad, she was
locked up in one of these

01:07:30.210 --> 01:07:31.670
shipping crates.

01:07:31.670 --> 01:07:35.560
So the first thing that I
thought should happen is get

01:07:35.560 --> 01:07:38.180
her out of that situation...

01:07:38.180 --> 01:07:40.130
send the troops over to rescue
her, so to speak.

01:07:40.130 --> 01:07:42.370
And the State Department,
I thought, did

01:07:42.370 --> 01:07:43.910
a pretty good job.

01:07:43.910 --> 01:07:47.820
- After I was rescued by federal
agents, they formed a

01:07:47.820 --> 01:07:50.420
meeting with KBR management.

01:07:50.420 --> 01:07:53.380
The management told me that
I had two options.

01:07:53.380 --> 01:07:57.020
One, I could continue working
there, or, two, I could go

01:07:57.020 --> 01:07:59.090
home and be terminated.

01:07:59.090 --> 01:08:03.140
I tried to pursue my criminal
case, and it didn't work.

01:08:03.140 --> 01:08:06.820
And then I tried to file a civil
suit, and that didn't

01:08:06.820 --> 01:08:09.390
work out because of the
arbitration clause in my

01:08:09.390 --> 01:08:10.640
employment contract.

01:08:19.762 --> 01:08:22.510
- No one would conceive that
this would happen to them,

01:08:22.510 --> 01:08:26.189
first of all, and secondly, no
one would conceive that this

01:08:26.189 --> 01:08:29.270
would be, oh, well then the
company that sent you over

01:08:29.270 --> 01:08:34.569
there and put you in this
position where you were raped

01:08:34.569 --> 01:08:36.050
is also... you're just
going to have to

01:08:36.050 --> 01:08:38.069
arbitrate with us secretly.

01:08:38.069 --> 01:08:40.770
I mean, I don't think anyone
could possibly conceive that

01:08:40.770 --> 01:08:41.649
that would happen.

01:08:41.649 --> 01:08:44.250
- But whenever you take a case
out of the court system,

01:08:44.250 --> 01:08:47.760
you're immediately put into
a biased type of forum.

01:08:47.760 --> 01:08:50.960
Arbitration happens to
be extremely biased.

01:08:50.960 --> 01:08:53.290
- Most arbitrations take
place in secret.

01:08:53.290 --> 01:08:54.819
You have a private judge.

01:08:54.819 --> 01:08:57.750
So if you have a credit card
agreement, the credit card

01:08:57.750 --> 01:09:00.689
company picks who the
arbitration company is going

01:09:00.689 --> 01:09:03.000
to be, and then the arbitration
company picks an

01:09:03.000 --> 01:09:04.880
individual arbitrator
to hear your case.

01:09:04.880 --> 01:09:08.080
- The arbitrator wants
repeat business.

01:09:08.080 --> 01:09:10.029
And they only deal
with you once.

01:09:10.029 --> 01:09:13.520
But they deal with the Bank of
America or General Motors or

01:09:13.520 --> 01:09:15.950
whoever it is, the businesses,
they deal with them

01:09:15.950 --> 01:09:17.729
day in and day out.

01:09:17.729 --> 01:09:20.880
And so they're going to tilt
their decisions toward the

01:09:20.880 --> 01:09:21.939
businesses.

01:09:21.939 --> 01:09:24.380
- There have been a bunch
of examples where if the

01:09:24.380 --> 01:09:28.210
arbitrator ruled in favor of a
consumer or ruled in favor of

01:09:28.210 --> 01:09:31.470
somebody who was an employee,
that they were blackballed.

01:09:31.470 --> 01:09:34.470
And they never got to work
again as an arbitrator.

01:09:34.470 --> 01:09:37.850
So they set up systems that are
essentially rigged against

01:09:37.850 --> 01:09:38.830
the consumers.

01:09:38.830 --> 01:09:42.140
- Many studies show that
consumers come out winning

01:09:42.140 --> 01:09:45.590
these cases maybe less
than 10% of the time.

01:09:45.590 --> 01:09:47.750
They're almost always
won by the bank or

01:09:47.750 --> 01:09:49.080
the credit card company.

01:09:49.080 --> 01:09:52.290
- It's impossible to find out
what the reason is for an

01:09:52.290 --> 01:09:54.390
arbitrator ruling for
one side or another.

01:09:54.390 --> 01:09:57.520
They just say, "This side wins,
this side loses", and

01:09:57.520 --> 01:09:58.150
that's it.

01:09:58.150 --> 01:09:59.590
- And there's no right
to appeal.

01:09:59.590 --> 01:10:02.520
So I have to take the final
judgment of one guy who's been

01:10:02.520 --> 01:10:06.030
picked by my credit card company
to tell me that I'm

01:10:06.030 --> 01:10:08.100
going to end up having to pay.

01:10:08.100 --> 01:10:09.160
- I'm not OK with that.

01:10:09.160 --> 01:10:10.100
- Yeah, I'm not OK with
that, either.

01:10:10.100 --> 01:10:10.276
- No.

01:10:10.276 --> 01:10:10.810
Nuh uh.

01:10:10.810 --> 01:10:12.480
- That's actually upsetting.

01:10:12.480 --> 01:10:16.560
- Transparency is a must in the
judicial process, so if

01:10:16.560 --> 01:10:20.310
there's no oversight in that
regard, I'd be pretty worried.

01:10:20.310 --> 01:10:23.790
- Until and unless Congress
takes action with regard to

01:10:23.790 --> 01:10:26.440
restricting the use of these
binding arbitration clauses,

01:10:26.440 --> 01:10:28.970
we're all going to be stuck
with these clauses.

01:10:28.970 --> 01:10:32.340
- Senator Al Franken proposing
the Pentagon shouldn't hire

01:10:32.340 --> 01:10:36.280
contractors that make their
employees agree in advance not

01:10:36.280 --> 01:10:39.900
to sue if they're raped
by co-workers.

01:10:39.900 --> 01:10:42.310
- I just started the Jamie Leigh
Foundation, and I've

01:10:42.310 --> 01:10:45.550
been trying to bring awareness
to the situation to help

01:10:45.550 --> 01:10:47.030
others through my foundation.

01:10:47.030 --> 01:10:49.240
- So behind the scenes up to
this point, you've been trying

01:10:49.240 --> 01:10:51.830
to pursue every legal avenue.

01:10:51.830 --> 01:10:53.921
- Oh yeah.

01:10:53.921 --> 01:10:57.110
- I'm in public because I wanted
to bring awareness to

01:10:57.110 --> 01:10:59.890
the situation that there is a
loophole in our justice system

01:10:59.890 --> 01:11:03.730
that needed to be fixed
very quickly.

01:11:03.730 --> 01:11:07.930
If I could just get this out
there, what happened to me,

01:11:07.930 --> 01:11:12.270
that maybe people would change
the laws and how the laws

01:11:12.270 --> 01:11:13.520
would change.

01:11:18.660 --> 01:11:19.652
- Hi.

01:11:19.652 --> 01:11:20.585
- Hi.

01:11:20.585 --> 01:11:21.010
- Thank you so much for
all you've done.

01:11:21.010 --> 01:11:22.430
- Hi, thank you so much
for all you've done.

01:11:22.430 --> 01:11:23.490
- Oh, thank you for
your courage.

01:11:23.490 --> 01:11:24.660
- It's just amazing.

01:11:24.660 --> 01:11:27.078
- Amazing!

01:11:27.078 --> 01:11:27.570
- Hi.

01:11:27.570 --> 01:11:28.062
And you're Rhianna.

01:11:28.062 --> 01:11:28.554
- Hi.

01:11:28.554 --> 01:11:29.050
Yes.

01:11:29.050 --> 01:11:30.270
Very nice to meet you.

01:11:30.270 --> 01:11:31.194
- Nice to meet you.

01:11:31.194 --> 01:11:35.816
You have an incredibly
courageous daughter, and also

01:11:35.816 --> 01:11:39.270
with a tremendous amount
of persistence.

01:11:39.270 --> 01:11:40.860
And, so, way to go.

01:11:40.860 --> 01:11:42.110
- Thank you.

01:11:53.980 --> 01:11:55.200
- And you're testifying
tomorrow.

01:11:55.200 --> 01:11:56.520
- Yes, sir.

01:11:56.520 --> 01:11:56.960
- OK.

01:11:56.960 --> 01:12:00.890
- I've testified in front
of Congress a few times.

01:12:00.890 --> 01:12:03.072
- Is the Judiciary Committee
tomorrow?

01:12:03.072 --> 01:12:04.365
- Judiciary, yes.

01:12:04.365 --> 01:12:06.323
- So that's me.

01:12:06.323 --> 01:12:07.573
- That's you.

01:12:10.400 --> 01:12:13.110
I turned to the civil court
system for justice when the

01:12:13.110 --> 01:12:16.520
criminal justice system
was slow to respond.

01:12:16.520 --> 01:12:19.900
When my lawyers filed a suit,
they were met with

01:12:19.900 --> 01:12:23.000
Halliburton's response that all
of my claims were to be

01:12:23.000 --> 01:12:26.630
decided in arbitration because
I had signed away my right to

01:12:26.630 --> 01:12:29.670
a trial by jury at such
an early age.

01:12:29.670 --> 01:12:31.910
I had no choice to sign
this contract because

01:12:31.910 --> 01:12:33.430
I needed this job.

01:12:33.430 --> 01:12:36.260
I had no idea that the clause
was part of the contract, what

01:12:36.260 --> 01:12:39.050
the clause actually meant, or
that I'd eventually end up in

01:12:39.050 --> 01:12:41.330
this horrible situation.

01:12:41.330 --> 01:12:44.580
The problem of forcing claims
like mine into a secret system

01:12:44.580 --> 01:12:48.560
of binding arbitration
goes well beyond me.

01:12:48.560 --> 01:12:51.240
Even when victims pursue their
claims in arbitration, the

01:12:51.240 --> 01:12:54.350
information is sealed and
kept confidential.

01:12:54.350 --> 01:12:56.990
This system of arbitration keeps
this evidence from ever

01:12:56.990 --> 01:12:59.930
coming to public light and
allows companies like

01:12:59.930 --> 01:13:02.520
Halliburton to continue to
allow the abuse of their

01:13:02.520 --> 01:13:05.785
employees without repercussion
or public scrutiny.

01:13:05.785 --> 01:13:08.620
- A seminal question is should
employers and employees be

01:13:08.620 --> 01:13:11.360
able to engage in mediation
and mandatory binding

01:13:11.360 --> 01:13:14.230
arbitration of employment
disputes as alternatives to

01:13:14.230 --> 01:13:15.760
litigation?

01:13:15.760 --> 01:13:19.280
The seminal answer
is absolutely.

01:13:19.280 --> 01:13:21.860
ADR and employment programs
are flourishing.

01:13:21.860 --> 01:13:23.240
When implemented appropriately,
they're

01:13:23.240 --> 01:13:25.930
decisively in employees'
best interests.

01:13:25.930 --> 01:13:28.860
It is a popular concept for
those employers who have

01:13:28.860 --> 01:13:31.230
adopted it and adopted
it appropriately.

01:13:31.230 --> 01:13:33.200
It provides for more effective
communication...

01:13:33.200 --> 01:13:38.440
- In your comments, you ought to
tell how arbitration would

01:13:38.440 --> 01:13:43.970
be helpful to somebody like Ms.
Jones, when her employer,

01:13:43.970 --> 01:13:48.370
Halliburton, in effect said that
rape and sexual assault

01:13:48.370 --> 01:13:52.430
has to just be considered
part of the job.

01:13:52.430 --> 01:13:53.730
- What we have in this
situation...

01:13:53.730 --> 01:13:57.190
I'm not here representing anyone
involved in that case.

01:13:57.190 --> 01:14:00.650
I'm not involved in that case.

01:14:00.650 --> 01:14:03.630
Ms. Jones has had her day in
court, and maybe more than

01:14:03.630 --> 01:14:04.570
she'd want.

01:14:04.570 --> 01:14:05.570
It goes on and on and on.

01:14:05.570 --> 01:14:07.170
I understand that.

01:14:07.170 --> 01:14:10.900
What we're talking about is the
concept of ADR and dispute

01:14:10.900 --> 01:14:12.720
resolution programs overall.

01:14:12.720 --> 01:14:14.970
- Senator Franken.

01:14:14.970 --> 01:14:16.640
- Thank you, Mr. Chairman,
and thank you for

01:14:16.640 --> 01:14:19.630
calling this hearing.

01:14:19.630 --> 01:14:25.660
Mr. de Bernardo, you said that
the net result of the use of

01:14:25.660 --> 01:14:30.570
arbitration is better
workplaces.

01:14:30.570 --> 01:14:32.330
- Correct.

01:14:32.330 --> 01:14:34.438
- Better workplaces.

01:14:34.438 --> 01:14:35.650
- Correct.

01:14:35.650 --> 01:14:37.450
- She was housed with 400 men.

01:14:40.080 --> 01:14:47.230
She told KBR twice that she was
being sexually harassed.

01:14:47.230 --> 01:14:54.830
She was drugged by men that the
KBR employment people knew

01:14:54.830 --> 01:14:56.830
did this kind of thing.

01:14:56.830 --> 01:14:58.660
She was raped, gang raped.

01:14:58.660 --> 01:15:01.330
She had to have reconstructive
surgery, sir.

01:15:04.970 --> 01:15:10.530
They had this arbitration.

01:15:10.530 --> 01:15:14.590
Now, if that created a
better workplace...

01:15:14.590 --> 01:15:19.100
and then she was locked in a
shipping container with an

01:15:19.100 --> 01:15:20.660
armed guard.

01:15:20.660 --> 01:15:26.220
Now, my question to you is, if
that's a better workplace,

01:15:26.220 --> 01:15:27.930
what was the workplace
like before?

01:15:31.190 --> 01:15:32.440
That's a rhetorical question.

01:15:32.440 --> 01:15:35.220
I'm not really asking
you that question.

01:15:35.220 --> 01:15:39.490
They had binding arbitration
at KBR.

01:15:39.490 --> 01:15:41.630
And because of that...

01:15:41.630 --> 01:15:45.680
and they asserted it
on cases like this.

01:15:45.680 --> 01:15:49.290
And Ms. Jones, in your
foundation, you've heard from

01:15:49.290 --> 01:15:50.930
other women who were raped.

01:15:50.930 --> 01:15:52.110
Is that not true?

01:15:52.110 --> 01:15:52.590
- Yes, sir.

01:15:52.590 --> 01:15:53.930
I have.

01:15:53.930 --> 01:15:59.530
- And women who are under
arbitration...

01:15:59.530 --> 01:16:00.940
- Yes, sir.

01:16:00.940 --> 01:16:02.550
...were told to keep silent.

01:16:02.550 --> 01:16:03.050
Is that right?

01:16:03.050 --> 01:16:04.640
- Exactly.

01:16:04.640 --> 01:16:07.500
- And because of that silence,
you didn't know about anything

01:16:07.500 --> 01:16:08.650
like this, did you?

01:16:08.650 --> 01:16:09.330
- Exactly.

01:16:09.330 --> 01:16:10.560
I didn't know.

01:16:10.560 --> 01:16:11.810
It was not public knowledge.

01:16:15.280 --> 01:16:17.800
- And when Mr. de Bernardo said
that you had your day in

01:16:17.800 --> 01:16:21.580
court, what was your reaction?

01:16:21.580 --> 01:16:22.830
- I was livid, sir.

01:16:26.140 --> 01:16:28.710
Four years to fight to get in
court is not a day in court.

01:16:32.010 --> 01:16:33.260
- Um, I was livid too.

01:16:37.770 --> 01:16:48.510
This is the result of your
binding mandatory arbitration,

01:16:48.510 --> 01:16:49.760
Mr. de Bernardo.

01:16:51.860 --> 01:16:54.880
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

01:17:03.590 --> 01:17:06.210
- As I talk to people who
have been harmed...

01:17:06.210 --> 01:17:09.900
look, most of them are not
interested in a big payday.

01:17:09.900 --> 01:17:12.370
Most of these people are
interested in accountability.

01:17:12.370 --> 01:17:16.170
And the way our system is
structured, the only way we

01:17:16.170 --> 01:17:17.540
have to hold somebody
accountable is through the

01:17:17.540 --> 01:17:19.120
courthouse.

01:17:19.120 --> 01:17:21.260
- I can't tell you why people
support tort reform.

01:17:21.260 --> 01:17:24.300
I can tell you that if they have
supported tort reform,

01:17:24.300 --> 01:17:29.220
and that they subsequently get
hurt, they're really sorry

01:17:29.220 --> 01:17:32.240
that they did.

01:17:32.240 --> 01:17:34.910
- There's a story of a
gentleman in Waco.

01:17:34.910 --> 01:17:38.665
He was harmed, and he sought to
hold the doctor who harmed

01:17:38.665 --> 01:17:39.890
him accountable.

01:17:39.890 --> 01:17:42.410
And he came to find out that
he couldn't do that.

01:17:42.410 --> 01:17:46.120
And he had voted for the state
constitutional amendment that

01:17:46.120 --> 01:17:49.630
allowed the legislature to limit
the rights of patients.

01:17:49.630 --> 01:17:54.300
And when he was told, "Well,
you know, Proposition 12 is

01:17:54.300 --> 01:17:57.430
what made this happen, made it
so that you couldn't access

01:17:57.430 --> 01:18:01.560
the courthouse," he said, "Well,
I voted for that." And

01:18:01.560 --> 01:18:03.920
they said, "Well, a lot of
people did, and that's why

01:18:03.920 --> 01:18:05.300
it's the law of the land now."

01:18:05.300 --> 01:18:06.780
And he said, "But,
that doesn't...

01:18:06.780 --> 01:18:08.280
that's not my case.

01:18:08.280 --> 01:18:10.850
That's those people who file
frivolous lawsuits.

01:18:10.850 --> 01:18:12.600
Those are those people who are
trying to take advantage of

01:18:12.600 --> 01:18:13.250
the system.

01:18:13.250 --> 01:18:16.050
That's those people who are
trying to cash in on some

01:18:16.050 --> 01:18:17.230
lawsuit lottery.

01:18:17.230 --> 01:18:18.760
That's not what I'm
trying to do.

01:18:18.760 --> 01:18:21.420
I was harmed, all I'm trying to
do is hold the person who

01:18:21.420 --> 01:18:27.490
harmed me accountable." And he
realized at that moment, "What

01:18:27.490 --> 01:18:30.440
I've been told all
of these years...

01:18:30.440 --> 01:18:31.900
they think that's me."

01:18:31.900 --> 01:18:34.770
- We don't need "tort reform".

01:18:34.770 --> 01:18:40.510
We need "tort respect", where
the tort law is what makes

01:18:40.510 --> 01:18:42.060
this country strong.

01:18:42.060 --> 01:18:46.330
It is tort law and the bringing
of tort lawsuits and

01:18:46.330 --> 01:18:48.730
the rendering of civil
damages, that's what

01:18:48.730 --> 01:18:50.750
keeps our toys safe.

01:18:50.750 --> 01:18:54.800
It's what keeps our cars from
horribly injuring people.

01:18:54.800 --> 01:18:58.460
It's what keeps people from
lying, cheating, and stealing.

01:18:58.460 --> 01:19:00.680
- If we can't hold perpetrators
of wrongdoing

01:19:00.680 --> 01:19:03.910
accountable, none of us are
safe from their actions.

01:19:03.910 --> 01:19:06.650
That's the role that the civil
justice system plays.

01:19:06.650 --> 01:19:10.550
The one entity that can hold
businesses and bad doctors

01:19:10.550 --> 01:19:13.520
accountable is the civil jury,
and that's what they're most

01:19:13.520 --> 01:19:14.190
afraid of.

01:19:14.190 --> 01:19:18.540
- Why is it that you support an
effort to limit the ability

01:19:18.540 --> 01:19:22.696
of juries to make a decision
when you're suing businesses,

01:19:22.696 --> 01:19:27.040
but you support the idea that
juries should be allowed to

01:19:27.040 --> 01:19:30.810
decide in death penalty cases
where the issue was whether or

01:19:30.810 --> 01:19:33.300
not some person should die?

01:19:33.300 --> 01:19:35.980
- Ultimately it comes down to
whether you trust juries.

01:19:35.980 --> 01:19:39.090
Certainly it's the best system
anybody's come up with in the

01:19:39.090 --> 01:19:42.185
history of the world to resolve
disputes involving

01:19:42.185 --> 01:19:43.326
ordinary people.

01:19:43.326 --> 01:19:44.670
- And then the question
becomes, what's the

01:19:44.670 --> 01:19:45.550
alternative?

01:19:45.550 --> 01:19:46.830
So should we let the
businesses decide?

01:19:46.830 --> 01:19:49.150
Should we let arbitrators
decide?

01:19:49.150 --> 01:19:52.990
If we give up the civil jury
as a tool for holding

01:19:52.990 --> 01:19:57.150
wrongdoers in the business
community accountable, what's

01:19:57.150 --> 01:19:57.920
the alternative?

01:19:57.920 --> 01:19:59.120
Who's going to police them?

01:19:59.120 --> 01:20:00.420
And the answer is no one.

01:20:00.420 --> 01:20:02.290
They're going to police
themselves, and that's exactly

01:20:02.290 --> 01:20:03.540
what they want.

01:20:12.250 --> 01:20:19.480
- It really opened my eyes to
how the system works and the

01:20:19.480 --> 01:20:24.750
things that I thought were in
place to protect you have been

01:20:24.750 --> 01:20:26.150
taken away.

01:20:26.150 --> 01:20:29.100
And I didn't realize there
were caps here.

01:20:29.100 --> 01:20:32.100
And I didn't realize that the
doctor wouldn't have to pay

01:20:32.100 --> 01:20:34.150
for this, that the taxpayers
were going to

01:20:34.150 --> 01:20:35.940
pay for Colin's damages.

01:20:54.680 --> 01:20:57.690
- This is a campaign that's
occurring all across the

01:20:57.690 --> 01:20:58.370
United States.

01:20:58.370 --> 01:21:01.310
It's not only in Mississippi.

01:21:01.310 --> 01:21:04.600
They don't want a level playing
field, and they'll

01:21:04.600 --> 01:21:07.880
spend millions of dollars to get
these people in place to

01:21:07.880 --> 01:21:11.510
be sure that the judges
will rule the way that

01:21:11.510 --> 01:21:12.760
they want them to.

01:21:25.900 --> 01:21:27.820
- I still have flashbacks.

01:21:27.820 --> 01:21:30.440
I still get jumpy if someone
comes up behind me.

01:21:30.440 --> 01:21:32.625
I have nightmares.

01:21:32.625 --> 01:21:35.555
I wish that I could confront
the men that

01:21:35.555 --> 01:21:37.350
did this to my body.

01:21:37.350 --> 01:21:40.700
I think that it would be
instrumental to my healing.

01:21:40.700 --> 01:21:43.892
The only way I could do that is
if I'm able to face them in

01:21:43.892 --> 01:21:48.900
a court of law, and I hope
to do that one day.

01:22:04.965 --> 01:22:07.550
- I mean, I've heard so many
ridiculous stories about "she

01:22:07.550 --> 01:22:10.970
was asking for $30 million",
or something equally

01:22:10.970 --> 01:22:12.050
ridiculous.

01:22:12.050 --> 01:22:14.790
Basically Stella told them,
"I want you to cover what

01:22:14.790 --> 01:22:17.713
Medicare doesn't cover, and I
want you to get a better lid

01:22:17.713 --> 01:22:19.710
on that coffee, because I don't
want this to happen to

01:22:19.710 --> 01:22:22.210
another person." And that
was basically what

01:22:22.210 --> 01:22:23.960
she was asking for.

01:22:23.960 --> 01:22:27.750
- When somebody goes to court,
they're doing something

01:22:27.750 --> 01:22:30.260
extraordinary that is hidden.

01:22:30.260 --> 01:22:34.760
To go to court and to sue is
not a simple procedure.

01:22:34.760 --> 01:22:37.470
You have to go through a lot
of trouble to do it.

01:22:37.470 --> 01:22:38.660
It affects your life.

01:22:38.660 --> 01:22:41.510
You're going to be attacked
in all kinds of ways.

01:22:41.510 --> 01:22:46.560
Going to court to gain
justice is heroic.

01:22:46.560 --> 01:22:49.540
That idea has to be out there.

01:22:49.540 --> 01:22:54.930
That is, when you, quote, "win
a case", you win it for other

01:22:54.930 --> 01:22:58.090
people as well as gaining
justice for yourself.