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The act of touching, both literally and metaphorically,

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is so much about her is that sense of touch.

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That to me is really the essence of her work is touch.

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You know, I think Ursula loves beauty,

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but I don\'t think she\'s really setting out

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to make beautiful things,

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and I think she\'s also setting out to make things

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that unsettle us a bit,

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I think is why people find it fascinating.

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I had a tremendous yearning to be an artist.

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And somehow I thought that I didn\'t really deserve that.

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And it took most of my life actually

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to gain confidence.

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Her personal experience is she often goes back

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to her childhood, and I remember her telling me,

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like how the fields look like in Poland,

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that her inner self was seeking that kind of landscape.

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So connections to all these things,

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but it really doesn\'t have to be Polish.

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Definitely like the immigrant\'s story.

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That\'s more, I think it\'s about coming to this world

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that\'s very new to you

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and trying to figure out how I\'m gonna deal with it.

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They were known now as Displaced Persons, DPs.

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In Concord, Northern Germany,

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starvation was the weapon--

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In the refugee camps, you could never escape the war.

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Everyone around me looked ravaged by the war,

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including the Germans.

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I slept on top of a spring metal bed

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that the soldiers used.

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Everything was made with wood, the floors, the walls,

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the ceilings, the doors, the staircase going up,

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and it was made in a very rough, rugged way.

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There was no insulation, so it was just the board

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between me and the outside world.

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And I recall my body being right next to the wall,

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and I could smell,

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I could feel, and there was huge difference

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between what happened within this wooden structure

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and what happened outside of it.

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So that there was a kind of safety the wood gave me.

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We would not have survived.

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I know that much, the camps, if it wasn\'t for my mother.

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We would not have survived.

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If it was up to my dad, it wouldn\'t have happened.

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Let\'s put it that way.

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No, it just would not have happened.

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We came to this country, it was 1950.

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Immediately my father got two jobs,

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and my mother went to work also,

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baking pies and rolls and things like that.

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I also remember there was the tub,

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and I had to be really little.

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Yeah.
And I remember

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how I used to really like

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when you used to come in to sing a song,

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like ,

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something like ,

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something like that,

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and I remember it was so much fun.

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Then I\'d kinda jump.

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I jumped, and then you would wrap me in the towel.

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It\'s wow, the feeling of safety,

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the towel wrapped around you.

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And you, with a big smile on your face singing.

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That\'s a nice memory.

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We got put in the newspapers,

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\'cause we were the only immigrants

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that had come in a very long time,

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and of course we had such a huge family.

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So I guess that made some kind of news,

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so that on our porch, boxes and boxes of clothing,

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and we looked at them in complete dismay.

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My God, the riches that were in this country.

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In third grade and fourth grade and fifth grade,

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I was the one elected to do all the posters,

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all the Christmas painting, all of the Christmas things.

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It gave me this special attention that was positive.

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I never thought of being an artist.

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I never understood there was such a thing as an artist,

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because I grew up in Plainville,

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and it\'s a blue collar working town

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that had no artists that I knew of.

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I think part of that deeper narrative also has to think

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about the significance of Ursula\'s work

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right now in sort of the time that we\'re living,

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and this deep and immersive commitment

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with a particular material and a process.

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Cedar, it\'s a very difficult wood to carve with a chisel.

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The fact that it doesn\'t have much of a grain,

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the fact that I receive it in neutral 4x4\'s,

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I think enables me to sort of use it and abuse it

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in ways that have a huge range of possibilities.

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I think she is using her own experiences

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to think about how abstract forms can be evocative

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and representative of what the human condition is.

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The work also has sort of a quality

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that it could have happened very long ago as well.

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It\'s indisputable that there\'s something

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about Ursula\'s process

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that makes the work incredibly distinctive

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and just continuing to pursue that with more

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and more depth and persistence over the years.

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It reveals some answers but always this feeling

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that there\'s something also being withheld.

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I do start with a 4x4 cedar beam.

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It really doesn\'t ask you to do anything.

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It\'s just like a piece of paper,

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like a canvas that has nothing on it.

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Her process is laborious.

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Her process is almost medieval.

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She marks it with a pencil.

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It\'s cut by her assistants,

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it\'s stacked, it\'s taken apart,

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it\'s glued, it\'s leveled

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and then it\'s put together and graphited.

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So each piece of wood is touched

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by at a minimum five people, probably more.

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I have been able to manipulate it

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in ways that are almost outrageous.

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Part of what is in her work is her joy,

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is her respect for labor and her joy in it

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and her feeling of accomplishment when it\'s all done.

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And it\'s also a bit of a community

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that\'s building the piece.

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I have a group of assistants that are superb.

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Without them I couldn\'t realize the work

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that I needed to realize.

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Through my brother,

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I got a part-time job here picking glue

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off of one of the recently laminated sculptures,

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and since that week, I haven\'t left.

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I usually am a holder.

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It involves marking the wood in numbers

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and then screwing down the wood,

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being basically a runner between Ursula and the cutters.

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If you could explain to him that.

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You want it to--
Instead of going up,

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that it should go basically from here to here

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in a fairly straight way.

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You can go just a little bit up,

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but this is too dramatic.

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I\'m the sculptor.

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My sculpture is a little bit of wood, steel,

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concrete, motor oil,

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whatever I can get my hands on pretty much.

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There\'s a visual element of cutting too.

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You\'re making choices when you\'re cutting,

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and so I have a general sense of her texture vocabulary.

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And so we work off of that.

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The rest of it\'s more or less a visual communication.

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Ursula started off cutting

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and then through the years, she\'s had other cutters,

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and they\'re kinda really influential in the dialogue

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of how the work ends up developing.

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You know, she draws the lines,

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but the cutter\'s kinda communicating

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what happens in between.

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For me, that\'s an extremely important mixture,

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the fact that I like them all so much,

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the fact that we have lunches together every day.

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All of that\'s an important part of the mix.

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We\'re always extremely respectful to one another,

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and that\'s an atmosphere that we have all created,

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that works to help make the art.

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But it\'s just wet on the top.

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It\'s not that it means that the wood\'s wet, right?

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Yeah.
Yeah.

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There were two very important early pieces

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that Ursula did.

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One called Saint Martin\'s Dream

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that was done in Battery Park.

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I had no idea who she was,

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and I saw the piece, this incredible kind of wings

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about to take off into New York Harbor

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on these kind of posts with this incredible

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kind of sense of rhythm and movement

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and they were just wood coming alive.

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I mean, here was wood, which is a natural object

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that is naturally living, which then has died

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and then been reborn in effect.

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Just around the same time I happened to be going

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to Artpark in Buffalo and saw her amazing piece there,

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which had all these posts that were set along this hillside

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with these kind of strange bulbous shapes,

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and then they were almost like seed pods.

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And they were both growing and not growing.

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I had not heard of her.

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I had never seen work quite like it.

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Totally fascinated by it.

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You know, materials for Ursula I think say a lot

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about time and temporality

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and what we might consider to be enduring or permanent.

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Although, her work has almost a kind of monumental quality

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or character, it\'s so much about time.

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What is singular about Ursula\'s work

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is that there aren\'t many women making sculpture

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on the scale that she\'s doing.

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There are some, I\'m not saying she\'s the only one,

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but Ursula has staked out that territory.

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But I think ultimately it\'s about making work

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is how you stay alive.

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One of the things that I had to come to terms with

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during my life almost from the time that I was born,

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I mean, but still it doesn\'t stop,

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is the issues that I had with my father.

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He inherited so much anger,

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so much paranoia.

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He used to beat us mercilessly in the camps.

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And my brother, who broke his hand

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because he fell off a horse,

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actually went through the whole night

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until the next morning,

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because he was more terrified to tell my father

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than he was of what was going on with him physically.

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When we came to the United States,

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I believe it was worse,

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you know, his sense of himself.

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He had two factory jobs,

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and he would step aside for anybody,

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because he thought every American

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that was alive was better than he was.

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I remember when he had one of his fingers cut off,

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and he felt so fortunate to get $500 for that.

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So when he beat, he would have this belt,

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and his strength was so strong.

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We would sometimes try to go into corners

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or try to go into the bathtub.

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We would hold our heads down,

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because we wanted to protect our heads.

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And so, he would just beat our backs.

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And when he\'d beat, he would .

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When we were growing up,

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my brothers and sisters relied on each other very heavily.

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And Ursula and I were extremely close.

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You know, we kind of had to stick together,

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because we were afraid of our father.

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He had a very, he was very gruff.

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He was very harsh.

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He was very insulting.

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He was big and strong.

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And he was very threatening.

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You showed your anger with a style

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that was as primitive as any adults that I have witnessed

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throughout my life.

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All this to say that I have also volumes of anger,

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which were brought on with your consistent,

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humiliating descriptions of who I was and my abilities.

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With frequency, I heard you telling me I was lazy,

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stupid and worthless.

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And somehow, that intense hatred helped enable me

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to figure myself out

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as something other than stupid and lazy and worthless.

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Making art is not easy,

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and it requires an incredible amount of resilience,

257
00:16:32.860 --> 00:16:37.460
and it requires a deep, deep need to make it.

258
00:16:37.460 --> 00:16:39.480
Ursula has that in such a clear way.

259
00:16:39.480 --> 00:16:42.070
She\'s very connected to that need.

260
00:16:43.387 --> 00:16:45.010
And I say to my students,

261
00:16:45.010 --> 00:16:47.520 line:15%
if art in some way hasn\'t saved your life,

262
00:16:47.520 --> 00:16:48.640 line:15%
in some essential way,

263
00:16:48.640 --> 00:16:49.653 line:15%
and that can mean very different things

264
00:16:49.653 --> 00:16:51.240
for different people.

265
00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:54.566
But if it doesn\'t have that kind of life support system,

266
00:16:54.566 --> 00:16:57.533
then you probably won\'t continue making it.

267
00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:23.047
Oh, but we won\'t be able

268
00:17:23.047 --> 00:17:24.791
to see it from here though, right?

269
00:17:24.791 --> 00:17:28.541
I mean, will we be able to?
I think so yeah.

270
00:17:29.604 --> 00:17:32.104
Can you widen it at the top?

271
00:17:41.669 --> 00:17:44.002
I think it\'s spaced right.

272
00:17:46.242 --> 00:17:48.220 line:15%
And once you put them in,

273
00:17:48.220 --> 00:17:51.713 line:15%
so it\'ll enable the copper to make that bend.

274
00:17:52.620 --> 00:17:54.966
It\'s the one, I see with it right there,

275
00:17:54.966 --> 00:17:56.861
that\'s a place, \'cause we\'re dipping in

276
00:17:56.861 --> 00:17:58.800
where you know we\'re gonna have to cut.

277
00:17:58.800 --> 00:18:00.690
And you\'re gonna fold over.

278
00:18:10.300 --> 00:18:12.200
I\'ve never worked with copper,

279
00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:15.560
nevermind hand-pounded copper.

280
00:18:15.560 --> 00:18:20.520
It\'s been one of the biggest unknowns

281
00:18:21.610 --> 00:18:23.673
that I have ever jumped into.

282
00:18:24.810 --> 00:18:27.170
Difficult thing, and of course,

283
00:18:27.170 --> 00:18:30.410
I always seem to veer towards the things

284
00:18:30.410 --> 00:18:33.110
that are very labor intensive.

285
00:18:33.110 --> 00:18:36.353 line:15%
And this certainly was very labor intensive.

286
00:18:46.770 --> 00:18:49.210
The processes that we\'re doing,

287
00:18:49.210 --> 00:18:52.720
although they\'re traditional, have been kind of modified

288
00:18:52.720 --> 00:18:55.690
and reapplied to what we need to do

289
00:18:55.690 --> 00:18:57.190
to create Ursula\'s piece

290
00:18:57.190 --> 00:19:00.543
and give it a rendering that does justice, you know.

291
00:19:03.490 --> 00:19:08.350
And the surface texture plays a very big role.

292
00:19:08.350 --> 00:19:11.560
Aside from the movement and flow of everything,

293
00:19:11.560 --> 00:19:12.683
it\'s that texture.

294
00:19:14.130 --> 00:19:17.829
I just felt like we had to do it as Ursula does,

295
00:19:17.829 --> 00:19:20.063
one block at a time.

296
00:19:23.380 --> 00:19:28.193
Copper is so seductive when you first see it,

297
00:19:29.040 --> 00:19:31.070
and I don\'t know how it happens

298
00:19:31.070 --> 00:19:34.930
that I use a material I\'ve never used

299
00:19:34.930 --> 00:19:38.713
in such a huge project.

300
00:19:52.510 --> 00:19:54.870
Okay, and then skip one

301
00:19:54.870 --> 00:19:58.848
and go down to the more inside of this.

302
00:19:58.848 --> 00:20:00.660
Inside?
Skip one, yep.

303
00:20:00.660 --> 00:20:01.533
Go here.

304
00:20:06.420 --> 00:20:09.044
Like above more, more above.

305
00:20:09.044 --> 00:20:11.390
The center one, yes.

306
00:20:11.390 --> 00:20:13.147
And keep going up, up,

307
00:20:13.147 --> 00:20:18.147
up if you do it, it\'s good, good.

308
00:20:32.090 --> 00:20:33.007
You good?

309
00:20:38.350 --> 00:20:40.680
I didn\'t know about copper,

310
00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:43.710
and good metal is very complicated.

311
00:20:43.710 --> 00:20:46.400
And I\'ve never ever seen it in the sun,

312
00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:48.710
and I have never seen it together

313
00:20:48.710 --> 00:20:51.130
with the bottom and the top together.

314
00:20:51.130 --> 00:20:56.123
So it\'s all going to be a new thing for me.

315
00:21:16.670 --> 00:21:18.020
It\'s right and your left.

316
00:21:18.020 --> 00:21:19.480
Yeah, there, there,

317
00:21:19.480 --> 00:21:21.223
along that whole line.

318
00:21:24.490 --> 00:21:26.237
She\'s coming into her own.

319
00:21:27.740 --> 00:21:29.523
She needs that scale.

320
00:21:48.020 --> 00:21:51.353
I think there are moments when I question what I do,

321
00:21:53.540 --> 00:21:55.320
but what kind of art

322
00:21:56.790 --> 00:21:58.350
with what materials.

323
00:21:58.350 --> 00:22:02.000
I always wanna try to get away from the cedar.

324
00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:03.440
I\'ve tried felt.

325
00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:05.390
I\'ve tried clay.

326
00:22:05.390 --> 00:22:07.800
I\'ve tried the fourth stomach of a cow.

327
00:22:07.800 --> 00:22:10.383
I\'ve the pig\'s intestines.

328
00:22:11.270 --> 00:22:12.760
And some of the pieces that I made

329
00:22:12.760 --> 00:22:15.763
with those materials worked out well,

330
00:22:20.260 --> 00:22:24.290
but materials aren\'t the end of the line either.

331
00:22:24.290 --> 00:22:27.100
It\'s not as though if you find the right material,

332
00:22:27.100 --> 00:22:30.313
then you will make this leap.

333
00:22:36.670 --> 00:22:41.670
I go to Dieu Donne carrying two suitcases full of goodies

334
00:22:42.130 --> 00:22:46.820 line:15%
that I have the possibility of putting onto the surface.

335
00:22:46.820 --> 00:22:50.944 line:15%
I would also take fabric apart.

336
00:22:50.944 --> 00:22:53.370
We call it distressing it.

337
00:22:53.370 --> 00:22:54.660
So we would use knives.

338
00:22:54.660 --> 00:22:55.850
We would use forks,

339
00:22:55.850 --> 00:23:00.064
and we would use other kind of tearing materials

340
00:23:00.064 --> 00:23:04.970
that almost brought the material back to the wool

341
00:23:04.970 --> 00:23:05.830
that it came from,

342
00:23:05.830 --> 00:23:07.993
because it was just completely shredded.

343
00:23:11.210 --> 00:23:13.180
And I don\'t go out of my way at all to try

344
00:23:13.180 --> 00:23:14.703
to relate it to my sculpture.

345
00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:50.423
I came when I was 33 to New York City,

346
00:23:51.590 --> 00:23:55.733
and I feel that this is where I was born.

347
00:23:57.600 --> 00:24:00.523
I was married for nine years.

348
00:24:02.820 --> 00:24:07.517
The first marriage was a very, very sad one,

349
00:24:09.300 --> 00:24:13.600
to be living with a person who\'s schizophrenic,

350
00:24:13.600 --> 00:24:17.780
and this man that used to stab the mattress

351
00:24:17.780 --> 00:24:20.620
with these huge knives

352
00:24:20.620 --> 00:24:23.240
and would smash the crib of our daughter.

353
00:24:23.240 --> 00:24:24.980
He became really, really sick,

354
00:24:24.980 --> 00:24:26.560
and they were living in Oakland.

355
00:24:26.560 --> 00:24:29.920
He had pretty much suffered a complete breakdown

356
00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:32.821
at that point, and I went to California

357
00:24:32.821 --> 00:24:36.340
and I moved all their stuff.

358
00:24:36.340 --> 00:24:38.720
I sold whatever they needed to get sold,

359
00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:40.870
and I moved everything back to Connecticut.

360
00:24:42.050 --> 00:24:44.060
And that was pretty much,

361
00:24:44.060 --> 00:24:45.260
because then he was

362
00:24:48.620 --> 00:24:50.893
institutionalized for several months.

363
00:24:52.163 --> 00:24:54.960
That was pretty much the end of their relationship

364
00:24:54.960 --> 00:24:56.750
at that point.

365
00:24:56.750 --> 00:25:01.350
You know, I tried so, so hard to save him.

366
00:25:01.350 --> 00:25:04.123
And of course it\'s not me that could save him.

367
00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:07.308
But I do know that my life

368
00:25:07.308 --> 00:25:11.043
and more importantly my daughter\'s life

369
00:25:11.043 --> 00:25:12.743
was in danger.

370
00:25:15.690 --> 00:25:18.670
Getting a divorce, coming to New York City,

371
00:25:18.670 --> 00:25:21.000
myself and my little daughter,

372
00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:25.013
just the two of us in this huge world.

373
00:25:31.160 --> 00:25:35.833
1975, it was brutal.

374
00:25:37.120 --> 00:25:41.293
There were empty buildings all over the place.

375
00:25:43.480 --> 00:25:44.910
I did food stamps.

376
00:25:44.910 --> 00:25:47.340
I delivered meals at Times Square area,

377
00:25:47.340 --> 00:25:51.070
which in the \'70s was so dangerous.

378
00:25:51.070 --> 00:25:54.230
All of the sex shows were going on then.

379
00:25:54.230 --> 00:25:56.110
I delivered food to older people

380
00:25:56.110 --> 00:25:58.490
that lived in single room occupancies,

381
00:25:58.490 --> 00:26:00.690
and there were many buildings

382
00:26:00.690 --> 00:26:02.760
that people were shooting up in,

383
00:26:02.760 --> 00:26:04.110
\'cause they were abandoned.

384
00:26:08.830 --> 00:26:13.273
I knew that I needed to do my work to live.

385
00:26:14.682 --> 00:26:17.470
I never say it that way to myself,

386
00:26:17.470 --> 00:26:20.603
but the need was tremendous.

387
00:26:22.140 --> 00:26:24.440
I took the initial trip with her to New York

388
00:26:25.820 --> 00:26:27.273
in my father\'s truck.

389
00:26:28.729 --> 00:26:30.280
He wasn\'t good at a lot of things,

390
00:26:30.280 --> 00:26:31.280
but he was unbelievable.

391
00:26:31.280 --> 00:26:33.710
He could pack a truck like there wouldn\'t be

392
00:26:34.820 --> 00:26:36.000
anything left in there,

393
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:37.460
as far as where you could put something.

394
00:26:37.460 --> 00:26:40.880
But Ursie, Ursula and I,

395
00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:43.250
left for New York at that point.

396
00:26:43.250 --> 00:26:46.103
So that was a very memorable day.

397
00:26:48.230 --> 00:26:50.863
I used to really enjoy going to Spring Street.

398
00:26:51.830 --> 00:26:53.570
That\'s in SoHo,

399
00:26:53.570 --> 00:26:56.890
and she had made the plunge, which was very brave by herself

400
00:26:56.890 --> 00:26:58.150
with the little girl.

401
00:26:58.150 --> 00:27:01.580
Very lean times also of course at that time.

402
00:27:01.580 --> 00:27:03.790
Because she was determined to be an artist.

403
00:27:03.790 --> 00:27:06.863
So she would do anything to become this artist.

404
00:27:11.370 --> 00:27:14.870 line:15%
We moved down to Spring Street into SoHo,

405
00:27:14.870 --> 00:27:18.080 line:15%
and we had a big loft

406
00:27:18.080 --> 00:27:19.740 line:15%
way before it was cool.

407
00:27:19.740 --> 00:27:22.317
It was not cool back then.

408
00:27:22.317 --> 00:27:24.830
And it was raw.

409
00:27:24.830 --> 00:27:27.010
There was a tin shower.

410
00:27:27.010 --> 00:27:29.240
It was cold.

411
00:27:29.240 --> 00:27:31.880
But in so being a really raw space,

412
00:27:31.880 --> 00:27:33.760
she was able to have an area

413
00:27:33.760 --> 00:27:35.850
where she set up her studio.

414
00:27:35.850 --> 00:27:38.380
And I roller skated in there,

415
00:27:38.380 --> 00:27:39.960
and I skateboarded in there.

416
00:27:39.960 --> 00:27:41.050
My friends would come over.

417
00:27:41.050 --> 00:27:42.018
We would have parties.

418
00:27:42.018 --> 00:27:43.950
We even built this thing

419
00:27:43.950 --> 00:27:46.610
where you could do pull ups on the ceiling.

420
00:27:46.610 --> 00:27:48.880
And then the big rule was do whatever you want,

421
00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:51.340
but don\'t set off the sprinklers.

422
00:27:51.340 --> 00:27:55.080
That was my childhood in that space.

423
00:27:55.080 --> 00:27:59.280
I got a loft on Spring Street and 6th Avenue.

424
00:27:59.280 --> 00:28:02.410
I paid $6,000 for it.

425
00:28:02.410 --> 00:28:06.560
It was my savings from the years that I taught.

426
00:28:06.560 --> 00:28:09.210
I taught for nine years as a teacher.

427
00:28:09.210 --> 00:28:10.883
So I put that in there.

428
00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:15.670
Her studio was literally on the other side of the wall

429
00:28:15.670 --> 00:28:16.950
from my bedroom.

430
00:28:16.950 --> 00:28:19.320
So my bedroom was here, and there was a wall,

431
00:28:19.320 --> 00:28:20.720
and this was her studio.

432
00:28:20.720 --> 00:28:23.060
And the wall wasn\'t that significant.

433
00:28:23.060 --> 00:28:25.400
I mean, I think it was Sheetrock.

434
00:28:25.400 --> 00:28:30.400
So I would go to sleep to the sounds of chainsaws,

435
00:28:30.435 --> 00:28:33.860
literally chainsaws and cursing

436
00:28:33.860 --> 00:28:36.090
and things falling apart.

437
00:28:36.090 --> 00:28:37.730
You could tell she was gluing something,

438
00:28:37.730 --> 00:28:38.710
and then it just,

439
00:28:38.710 --> 00:28:41.860
you know, would sort of slide apart,

440
00:28:41.860 --> 00:28:43.530
and all the clamps would fall off.

441
00:28:43.530 --> 00:28:48.140
You\'d hear clanging, and that was my, I don\'t know

442
00:28:48.140 --> 00:28:50.701
if you\'d call it a lullaby, but I fell asleep to that.

443
00:28:50.701 --> 00:28:52.063
That was just normal.

444
00:28:53.410 --> 00:28:54.560
We didn\'t have anything.

445
00:28:54.560 --> 00:28:56.620
We didn\'t have any money.

446
00:28:56.620 --> 00:28:58.534
We had food stamps.

447
00:28:58.534 --> 00:29:00.550
Really, that\'s what it was.

448
00:29:00.550 --> 00:29:01.603
It was poverty.

449
00:29:02.760 --> 00:29:05.630
Then, I was accepted into Columbia University,

450
00:29:05.630 --> 00:29:08.620
because I was making art the entire time.

451
00:29:08.620 --> 00:29:11.290
Because that\'s what I had to do,

452
00:29:11.290 --> 00:29:15.040
and I realized that obviously that is what I had to do

453
00:29:15.040 --> 00:29:16.760
with my life.

454
00:29:16.760 --> 00:29:19.040
I mean, it was a very, very tight,

455
00:29:19.040 --> 00:29:20.553
close relationship.

456
00:29:30.310 --> 00:29:32.060
So do you wanna finish with makeup first?

457
00:29:32.060 --> 00:29:33.680
Do you want any--
Yes, just the makeup.

458
00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:36.430
I don\'t know, my rouge always is screwed up.

459
00:29:36.430 --> 00:29:38.170
Your what?
My rouge.

460
00:29:38.170 --> 00:29:39.650
Rouge?
Yes.

461
00:29:39.650 --> 00:29:40.483
That\'s a very old fashioned word.

462
00:29:40.483 --> 00:29:43.653
It\'s the first time I\'m putting on makeup in weeks.

463
00:29:45.140 --> 00:29:46.963
Your eyebrows are so skinny.

464
00:29:49.707 --> 00:29:51.473
Okay.
Good?

465
00:29:51.473 --> 00:29:53.231
I mean, does it look all right?

466
00:29:53.231 --> 00:29:54.064
I think it looks fine.

467
00:29:54.064 --> 00:29:56.600
She would bring me to her graduate school classes,

468
00:29:56.600 --> 00:29:57.433
and I would nap.

469
00:29:57.433 --> 00:29:59.573
I even remember napping on the,

470
00:30:01.770 --> 00:30:02.810
where they had the easels

471
00:30:02.810 --> 00:30:04.080
and whatnot that you would draw on,

472
00:30:04.080 --> 00:30:07.650
and she would kinda tuck me into one of the little shelves,

473
00:30:07.650 --> 00:30:08.740
and I would go to sleep.

474
00:30:08.740 --> 00:30:13.660
So my mom had two, three teaching jobs

475
00:30:13.660 --> 00:30:14.760
going on at the same time.

476
00:30:14.760 --> 00:30:17.823
So I don\'t remember not getting myself to school by myself.

477
00:30:19.240 --> 00:30:22.420
In New York, I came to a place

478
00:30:22.420 --> 00:30:25.400 line:15%
where there were other women artists.

479
00:30:25.400 --> 00:30:27.820 line:15%
You know, somehow I got the feeling

480
00:30:27.820 --> 00:30:31.730 line:15%
that art is something important.

481
00:30:31.730 --> 00:30:33.932 line:15%
I knew it inside of me,

482
00:30:33.932 --> 00:30:35.980 line:15%
but I hadn\'t seen any part

483
00:30:35.980 --> 00:30:38.223 line:15%
of the world really demonstrate that.

484
00:30:39.715 --> 00:30:41.350 line:15%
It\'s really more than that.

485
00:30:41.350 --> 00:30:44.901 line:15%
It was all of these shows that happened,

486
00:30:44.901 --> 00:30:48.650
fantastic shows, fantastic shows.

487
00:30:48.650 --> 00:30:52.710
At MoMA, where I saw Congolese, a huge piece,

488
00:30:52.710 --> 00:30:55.660
and I saw the Giacometti shows.

489
00:30:55.660 --> 00:30:58.330
I saw the Picasso shows.

490
00:30:58.330 --> 00:31:01.990
New York City felt so exciting,

491
00:31:01.990 --> 00:31:06.260
and it felt like I could drink it in.

492
00:31:06.260 --> 00:31:10.320
It was like this awakening,

493
00:31:10.320 --> 00:31:13.333
this miraculous awakening.

494
00:31:15.540 --> 00:31:19.310
So going to New York City

495
00:31:20.580 --> 00:31:22.650
woke me up in a way

496
00:31:22.650 --> 00:31:27.597
that was jarring and marvelous.

497
00:31:32.530 --> 00:31:35.840
I spent two years welding.

498
00:31:35.840 --> 00:31:39.150
It wasn\'t until the very, very end of my two years

499
00:31:39.150 --> 00:31:42.460
at Columbia University that I had a monk

500
00:31:42.460 --> 00:31:45.260
by the name of Michael Mulhern

501
00:31:45.260 --> 00:31:48.860
that brought me 4x4 cedar beams.

502
00:31:48.860 --> 00:31:52.080
I felt like this was soft.

503
00:31:52.080 --> 00:31:54.960
This was sensuous,

504
00:31:54.960 --> 00:31:58.110
and that I could get really carried away.

505
00:32:21.710 --> 00:32:23.333
So when\'s this gonna be done?

506
00:32:24.680 --> 00:32:28.090
Another seven days

507
00:32:28.090 --> 00:32:30.670
I think we\'re gonna get through the cutting.

508
00:32:30.670 --> 00:32:33.388
Then another two or three weeks is gonna be gluing.

509
00:32:33.388 --> 00:32:35.890
That\'s the most time consuming thing.

510
00:32:35.890 --> 00:32:37.166
And then we\'re gonna graphite at the end.

511
00:32:37.166 --> 00:32:38.698
We\'re gonna put powdered dust on it,

512
00:32:38.698 --> 00:32:40.948
and that\'ll be fun for you.

513
00:32:41.993 --> 00:32:43.355
You\'re gonna do what?

514
00:32:43.355 --> 00:32:47.103
We\'re gonna put graphite dust on it.

515
00:32:48.497 --> 00:32:50.580
They\'re gonna be dark.

516
00:32:50.580 --> 00:32:51.993
Is that bad for you?

517
00:32:51.993 --> 00:32:53.326
We have masks.

518
00:32:54.490 --> 00:32:56.230
We do it, I put the dust on,

519
00:32:56.230 --> 00:32:57.370
and everybody else scrapes it.

520
00:32:57.370 --> 00:32:59.620
There really isn\'t much dust in the air.

521
00:33:00.626 --> 00:33:02.500 line:15%
But I\'m sure it\'s not great for you.

522
00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:10.160
I think it was in early \'80s,

523
00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:12.590 line:15%
I was teaching sculpture at Yale.

524
00:33:12.590 --> 00:33:14.270 line:15%
We were this team,

525
00:33:14.270 --> 00:33:19.270 line:15%
and Ursula had this fantastic old taxi cab,

526
00:33:19.870 --> 00:33:24.080 line:15%
big taxi cab, the ones that New York was sort of famous for,

527
00:33:24.080 --> 00:33:25.860 line:15%
but it was painted white.

528
00:33:25.860 --> 00:33:27.143
It had no heat.

529
00:33:28.020 --> 00:33:29.340
Ursula didn\'t notice that.

530
00:33:29.340 --> 00:33:31.300
Now, this is driving up to New Haven

531
00:33:31.300 --> 00:33:32.840
in the middle of winter.

532
00:33:32.840 --> 00:33:35.883
Then that same year or the year later,

533
00:33:36.730 --> 00:33:39.160
we were buying this building together.

534
00:33:39.160 --> 00:33:40.580
This was a funky building.

535
00:33:40.580 --> 00:33:42.210
It cost nothing.

536
00:33:42.210 --> 00:33:45.130
So going through all those steps

537
00:33:45.130 --> 00:33:49.120
to do that and having this experience teaching together,

538
00:33:49.120 --> 00:33:53.689
we had a few years, a lot of stories to tell.

539
00:33:53.689 --> 00:33:58.689
You know, Ursula is very driven, very focused,

540
00:33:58.740 --> 00:34:00.840
extremely disciplined.

541
00:34:00.840 --> 00:34:03.100
And she had a young child,

542
00:34:03.100 --> 00:34:05.470
and she was a single mother.

543
00:34:05.470 --> 00:34:10.470
So I think keeping it all together like that

544
00:34:11.440 --> 00:34:12.720
was a struggle.

545
00:34:12.720 --> 00:34:15.650
She didn\'t have the career that she has now.

546
00:34:15.650 --> 00:34:18.713
So it was the beginning of things.

547
00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:23.910 line:15%
This is the first piece that I\'ve made that moves.

548
00:34:23.910 --> 00:34:27.520 line:15%
I wanted it to have the notion

549
00:34:27.520 --> 00:34:29.707
of almost like a mortar and a pestle

550
00:34:29.707 --> 00:34:32.490
or of a butter and churn,

551
00:34:32.490 --> 00:34:35.840
where it would be lifted up a foot into the air,

552
00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:40.110
down again, very slow, very deliberate movement.

553
00:34:40.110 --> 00:34:43.810
And all of them will move at slightly different rates,

554
00:34:43.810 --> 00:34:45.810
and they\'ll land in the bottom of the bowl

555
00:34:45.810 --> 00:34:47.700
at slightly different times.

556
00:34:47.700 --> 00:34:51.223
So it\'ll feel like a very primitive factory.

557
00:35:04.340 --> 00:35:09.150
I think getting the new studio, getting the job at Yale,

558
00:35:09.150 --> 00:35:12.620
meeting Paul, just everything was pointing

559
00:35:12.620 --> 00:35:13.913
in the right direction.

560
00:35:16.010 --> 00:35:19.530
Artistic talent is in one half of the brain,

561
00:35:19.530 --> 00:35:21.760
and logic is in the other half.

562
00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:24.203
But both are creative processes.

563
00:35:26.310 --> 00:35:29.330 line:15%
It\'s a very logical thing in science I can say,

564
00:35:29.330 --> 00:35:31.590 line:15%
if this is true and if this is true,

565
00:35:31.590 --> 00:35:34.130 line:15%
then this must be true.
Yes.

566
00:35:34.130 --> 00:35:37.150
And art doesn\'t evolve that way.

567
00:35:37.150 --> 00:35:39.850
But we both pay homage to nature.

568
00:35:39.850 --> 00:35:41.830
We both observe nature.

569
00:35:41.830 --> 00:35:45.330
You observe it in a very different way than I do,

570
00:35:45.330 --> 00:35:49.510
but I read a lot of things from nature,

571
00:35:49.510 --> 00:35:50.860
whether it\'s from animals,

572
00:35:50.860 --> 00:35:52.090
whether it\'s from plants,

573
00:35:52.090 --> 00:35:53.303
whether it\'s from what the clouds do,

574
00:35:53.303 --> 00:35:54.510
what the sky does.

575
00:35:54.510 --> 00:35:58.313
He\'s my nature teacher.

576
00:36:05.050 --> 00:36:07.520 line:15%
What causes the formation of the cloud,

577
00:36:07.520 --> 00:36:09.573 line:15%
what causes its dissolution?

578
00:36:10.468 --> 00:36:12.680
I know you might always make a beautiful cloud.

579
00:36:12.680 --> 00:36:14.510
Oh I don\'t imitate it.

580
00:36:14.510 --> 00:36:16.980
I just look at it.

581
00:36:16.980 --> 00:36:20.900
But there\'s something in that cloud

582
00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:25.370
that feels consequential to what you need.

583
00:36:28.510 --> 00:36:31.870
To make anything that nature makes is impossible,

584
00:36:31.870 --> 00:36:35.920
because nature is so complex,

585
00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:39.160
so infinitely complex.

586
00:36:39.160 --> 00:36:44.160
The surface qualities is nothing like the reality.

587
00:36:44.670 --> 00:36:46.560
I mean, I don\'t do that.

588
00:36:46.560 --> 00:36:48.260
I don\'t try to copy,

589
00:36:48.260 --> 00:36:51.320
but you take certain things that you need,

590
00:36:51.320 --> 00:36:53.630
but you don\'t even know you\'re doing that.

591
00:36:53.630 --> 00:36:55.460
It\'s just in your mind somewhere,

592
00:36:55.460 --> 00:36:57.430
and you dip into that,

593
00:36:57.430 --> 00:37:02.430
and you weave it together to make it more or less abstract,

594
00:37:03.900 --> 00:37:07.610
but you\'re borrowing still from nature.

595
00:37:07.610 --> 00:37:10.653
You know that there\'s kind of a hole that\'s functioning,

596
00:37:11.500 --> 00:37:14.110
and even when it gets distilled into something

597
00:37:14.110 --> 00:37:16.960
that\'s two dimensional on a screen,

598
00:37:16.960 --> 00:37:21.283
you can\'t feel that from the piece.

599
00:37:21.283 --> 00:37:23.070
You can\'t feel what you can feel

600
00:37:23.070 --> 00:37:25.723
when you\'re actually looking at it in its actuality.

601
00:37:30.170 --> 00:37:32.400
I actually hate the word beauty,

602
00:37:32.400 --> 00:37:34.660
and I feel very uncomfortable using it,

603
00:37:34.660 --> 00:37:37.520
because nobody knows what it means,

604
00:37:37.520 --> 00:37:41.870
and everybody has their own understanding of it.

605
00:37:41.870 --> 00:37:45.050
And it\'s kind of an idealized state,

606
00:37:45.050 --> 00:37:48.820
and I\'m not sure whether anything like that even exists.

607
00:37:48.820 --> 00:37:51.840
There\'s no criteria for beauty.

608
00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:54.370
There\'s no criteria for art to begin with.

609
00:37:54.370 --> 00:37:55.930
We can\'t define it, but--

610
00:37:55.930 --> 00:38:00.253
You can\'t define it.
I started going out with you

611
00:38:00.253 --> 00:38:03.443
because of your beauty.

612
00:38:07.334 --> 00:38:08.751
So it\'s a window.

613
00:38:11.680 --> 00:38:15.770
You\'re direct.

614
00:38:15.770 --> 00:38:19.040
At 30 years ago, we went on a trip to Poland.

615
00:38:19.040 --> 00:38:21.160
It was her first trip there.

616
00:38:21.160 --> 00:38:24.800
I felt as though there was something

617
00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:29.710
that I should have belonged to

618
00:38:29.710 --> 00:38:34.660
and that something was a land and a place and a language

619
00:38:35.570 --> 00:38:39.620
that in my head was akin to Poland.

620
00:38:39.620 --> 00:38:44.620
First of all, Poland used to be a land of wood,

621
00:38:45.730 --> 00:38:46.983
a lot of wood.

622
00:38:48.110 --> 00:38:50.660
When you go to a village in Poland,

623
00:38:50.660 --> 00:38:54.560
there is a very neat, huge pile of wood

624
00:38:54.560 --> 00:38:57.560
that they use to heat their house with in the winter.

625
00:38:57.560 --> 00:39:02.560
And this pile is sort of put on with great care and grace.

626
00:39:04.410 --> 00:39:06.300 line:15%
And they get fancy with the doors.

627
00:39:06.300 --> 00:39:09.060 line:15%
They put something akin to almost like doilies

628
00:39:09.060 --> 00:39:13.673 line:15%
that they carve out of the wood.

629
00:39:14.700 --> 00:39:16.830
I do think that there might be a relationship

630
00:39:16.830 --> 00:39:21.830
between what I do and domestic implements

631
00:39:22.040 --> 00:39:27.040
used by women over the ages to do chores,

632
00:39:27.900 --> 00:39:31.010
whether it\'s washing on a washboard

633
00:39:31.010 --> 00:39:32.963
or mixing in a bowl.

634
00:39:33.910 --> 00:39:38.910
I made this corrugated paddle before I ever saw a tool

635
00:39:39.430 --> 00:39:42.100
that I have since seen many times in Poland

636
00:39:42.100 --> 00:39:43.217
called the .

637
00:39:44.210 --> 00:39:45.490
But obviously it\'s related

638
00:39:45.490 --> 00:39:46.545
to the .

639
00:39:46.545 --> 00:39:49.200
But I never saw one when I made this.

640
00:39:49.200 --> 00:39:54.082
This tool is a slender paddle with a handle on it

641
00:39:54.082 --> 00:39:57.990
that has a corrugation on its face

642
00:39:57.990 --> 00:40:01.363
that\'s used to rub damp linen.

643
00:40:02.230 --> 00:40:04.730
And that piece, I\'m just fooling around.

644
00:40:04.730 --> 00:40:06.290
There\'s something like a

645
00:40:06.290 --> 00:40:10.460
underneath it, and I stretch skin over it,

646
00:40:10.460 --> 00:40:12.910
but it\'s still nowhere.

647
00:40:12.910 --> 00:40:14.610
And actually at one time it was a chair.

648
00:40:14.610 --> 00:40:16.043
It was the back of a chair.

649
00:40:16.950 --> 00:40:20.500
She had never seen this kind of countrified photographs

650
00:40:20.500 --> 00:40:23.950
or anything, and the way they tie up the wheat

651
00:40:23.950 --> 00:40:25.950
at the end of the summer and they cut it

652
00:40:25.950 --> 00:40:27.840
in all these shapes.

653
00:40:27.840 --> 00:40:30.340
Some of those shapes look almost identical

654
00:40:30.340 --> 00:40:32.420
to some of her sculptures.

655
00:40:32.420 --> 00:40:33.520
I couldn\'t believe it.

656
00:40:33.520 --> 00:40:35.450 line:15%
So it makes me think, well, there\'s another area

657
00:40:35.450 --> 00:40:38.470 line:15%
of creativity which is inherited,

658
00:40:38.470 --> 00:40:40.447
that this is in a Polish brain.

659
00:40:40.447 --> 00:40:43.909
Beauty, the way they tie the wheat together

660
00:40:43.909 --> 00:40:45.870 line:15%
and in her wooden sculpture.

661
00:40:45.870 --> 00:40:47.910 line:15%
I couldn\'t believe how similar they were.

662
00:40:47.910 --> 00:40:49.630 line:15%
And she agreed with that.

663
00:40:51.400 --> 00:40:53.200
The fact that I\'m Polish,

664
00:40:54.299 --> 00:40:56.703
I think is extremely important to me,

665
00:40:57.611 --> 00:40:59.511
but I\'m not sure I could tell you how.

666
00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:02.600
Nobody else has the talent that she has.

667
00:41:02.600 --> 00:41:04.360
Not in her family, no.

668
00:41:04.360 --> 00:41:05.740
Ursula never wavered though.

669
00:41:05.740 --> 00:41:08.651
I mean, she was incredibly strong,

670
00:41:08.651 --> 00:41:13.651
but her artwork was her driving force always, always,

671
00:41:13.677 --> 00:41:15.040
and it is to this day.

672
00:41:15.040 --> 00:41:19.490
And this is how she\'s processed all of these things

673
00:41:19.490 --> 00:41:21.447
that happened to her while she was growing up.

674
00:41:21.447 --> 00:41:24.300
And I was not privy to all the things that happened

675
00:41:24.300 --> 00:41:27.330
in the camps since I was one when we got here,

676
00:41:27.330 --> 00:41:30.623
and I know that that had a real affect on her also.

677
00:41:32.600 --> 00:41:35.370
Her work ethic is very similar to my father\'s.

678
00:41:35.370 --> 00:41:36.760
There\'s one thing my father could do,

679
00:41:36.760 --> 00:41:39.419
he could do the work of about four or five people,

680
00:41:39.419 --> 00:41:41.550
and no exaggeration there.

681
00:41:41.550 --> 00:41:43.013
And he was very strong.

682
00:41:43.980 --> 00:41:45.240
He was big.

683
00:41:45.240 --> 00:41:49.469
He would slam his fist down on the table a lot

684
00:41:49.469 --> 00:41:50.910
for no reason.

685
00:41:50.910 --> 00:41:52.490
He was never sweet.

686
00:41:52.490 --> 00:41:54.253
He never said anything nice to you.

687
00:41:55.280 --> 00:41:56.793
He never gave you a gift.

688
00:41:57.960 --> 00:41:59.560
But at the end of the day,

689
00:41:59.560 --> 00:42:02.083
I remember seeing him chop firewood.

690
00:42:04.146 --> 00:42:07.430
10 men would chop the same amount of firewood.

691
00:42:07.430 --> 00:42:11.340
He was very strong and very agile with his hands.

692
00:42:11.340 --> 00:42:15.320
So good at it that we buried an ax with you.

693
00:42:15.320 --> 00:42:19.560
We put it into, your favorite ax,

694
00:42:19.560 --> 00:42:21.223
we put into your coffin.

695
00:42:24.330 --> 00:42:26.823
His life was so sad,

696
00:42:27.690 --> 00:42:32.390
and he gave us so much pain.

697
00:42:32.390 --> 00:42:34.240
But I can always say I\'m glad

698
00:42:34.240 --> 00:42:39.240
that I did something with that anger, with that pain.

699
00:42:57.000 --> 00:43:00.100
There\'s a lot of pride that I have in Ursula.

700
00:43:00.100 --> 00:43:03.430
I mean, I think she\'s just a spectacular artist,

701
00:43:03.430 --> 00:43:05.730
and she keeps evolving,

702
00:43:05.730 --> 00:43:07.600
which is mind boggling.

703
00:43:07.600 --> 00:43:11.130
The way she keeps getting better and better

704
00:43:11.130 --> 00:43:14.710
and the way it\'s evolved through the years.

705
00:43:14.710 --> 00:43:16.970
From some of her first shows,

706
00:43:16.970 --> 00:43:19.180
where there were basically,

707
00:43:19.180 --> 00:43:22.970
they looked like loaves of bread made of cedar

708
00:43:22.970 --> 00:43:26.830
to these intricate cuts and designs

709
00:43:26.830 --> 00:43:28.740
and these huge sculptures

710
00:43:28.740 --> 00:43:32.040
and just amazing, just totally amazing

711
00:43:32.040 --> 00:43:34.923
and evolving into the bronze.

712
00:43:35.840 --> 00:43:39.850
Bronze, it sort of has the durability of hundreds

713
00:43:39.850 --> 00:43:42.110
and hundreds and hundreds of years.

714
00:43:42.110 --> 00:43:46.070
But I think a really more important one

715
00:43:46.070 --> 00:43:51.070
is that there are structures that I have found

716
00:43:51.230 --> 00:43:56.230
that for me actually work better in bronze.

717
00:43:58.769 --> 00:44:03.200
I first met Ursula, I think, 20 years ago.

718
00:44:03.200 --> 00:44:06.990
What drew me initially was the use of wood.

719
00:44:06.990 --> 00:44:11.530
It was when she was really making smaller pieces

720
00:44:11.530 --> 00:44:15.020
than I knew, and most pieces out of wood.

721
00:44:15.020 --> 00:44:19.690 line:15%
And now, she\'s making things that are much larger

722
00:44:19.690 --> 00:44:23.953 line:15%
and making things for commission cast in bronze.

723
00:44:26.610 --> 00:44:29.720
But I think the translation from the wood

724
00:44:29.720 --> 00:44:32.873
to the bronze really works.

725
00:45:02.280 --> 00:45:06.830
I made a drawing that was something like 35 feet long

726
00:45:07.830 --> 00:45:12.380
and four feet high of the pattern

727
00:45:12.380 --> 00:45:14.350
of all of this lace,

728
00:45:14.350 --> 00:45:19.350
drawn on the plastic and then placed on the wax mold.

729
00:45:38.930 --> 00:45:41.180
They\'re like puzzle pieces.

730
00:45:41.180 --> 00:45:42.163
They really are.

731
00:45:44.490 --> 00:45:48.980
So that\'s something, it looks really complicated,

732
00:45:48.980 --> 00:45:51.420
but when you break it down step by step

733
00:45:51.420 --> 00:45:52.760
and start at the beginning

734
00:45:53.750 --> 00:45:56.610
and work on one problem at a time,

735
00:45:56.610 --> 00:45:57.720
you can get through it.

736
00:45:57.720 --> 00:45:58.920
That sounds like life.

737
00:46:15.570 --> 00:46:19.433
That\'s a beautiful thing.
It\'s a beautiful thing.

738
00:47:23.571 --> 00:47:25.821
Yeah, I\'m fine, I\'m fine.

739
00:47:43.280 --> 00:47:47.277
Scotch pads, cut two circles out of \'em

740
00:47:47.277 --> 00:47:52.277
and put them around a something that rotates very heavily

741
00:47:52.430 --> 00:47:56.400
and then rub them on the surfaces that come out.

742
00:47:56.400 --> 00:47:58.530
And when I do that, I keep thinking

743
00:47:58.530 --> 00:48:01.957
that I wanna pretend that I\'m the wind

744
00:48:03.270 --> 00:48:06.040
in some way and what would be the sections

745
00:48:06.040 --> 00:48:07.560
that would be rubbed off?

746
00:48:07.560 --> 00:48:12.380
So that the bronze can announce itself,

747
00:48:12.380 --> 00:48:16.563
so that the bronze can be the bronze it is.

748
00:48:16.563 --> 00:48:17.396
Yeah.

749
00:48:19.323 --> 00:48:21.220
Can you imagine being a little kid,

750
00:48:21.220 --> 00:48:23.941
and this is like your fort up here?

751
00:48:23.941 --> 00:48:27.941
To have that would be awesome.
Oh great, great.

752
00:48:30.451 --> 00:48:31.284
Ah.

753
00:48:39.191 --> 00:48:41.513
It\'s gonna be forevermore

754
00:48:41.513 --> 00:48:45.563
before I can tell you how it feels.

755
00:48:46.861 --> 00:48:49.397
But the patina sure looks good.

756
00:48:50.428 --> 00:48:55.428
It sure looks just, it sure has just the kind of drama

757
00:48:56.000 --> 00:49:00.453
that I want and actually so do the surfaces.

758
00:49:04.060 --> 00:49:07.050
And I also think it has the emotional stuff

759
00:49:09.660 --> 00:49:11.403
that\'s flowing from her

760
00:49:13.130 --> 00:49:14.320
that I need as well.

761
00:49:35.340 --> 00:49:37.130
Shims, two shims,

762
00:49:37.130 --> 00:49:38.820
a plate, a bronze plate,

763
00:49:38.820 --> 00:49:41.359 line:15%
and they all have to go in just right.

764
00:49:41.359 --> 00:49:43.610 line:15%
So they\'re kind of pushing around, wiggle it,

765
00:49:43.610 --> 00:49:47.613 line:15%
shake it, pry it until we can get all of \'em started.

766
00:49:48.520 --> 00:49:51.800
I think it has such brilliance,

767
00:49:51.800 --> 00:49:56.690
such a majestic presence that I think people will see it

768
00:49:56.690 --> 00:49:58.320
as something absolutely wonderful,

769
00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:01.570
and I think it will be one of the go-to sculptures,

770
00:50:01.570 --> 00:50:05.520
and that beautiful laced area on top will be lit up

771
00:50:05.520 --> 00:50:08.520
from inside, so that as you walk by,

772
00:50:08.520 --> 00:50:11.860 line:15%
it will remind you of little synapses in the brain.

773
00:50:11.860 --> 00:50:15.790 line:15%
And then it will be lit up from the ground.

774
00:50:15.790 --> 00:50:18.610
So it will stand there just as a monument to art,

775
00:50:18.610 --> 00:50:20.290
a monument to science.

776
00:52:24.800 --> 00:52:29.033
I do want people to touch the sculpture.

777
00:52:31.958 --> 00:52:35.273
And I do want their fingers to make a mark.

778
00:52:37.160 --> 00:52:40.179
There\'s acid on the tips of your fingers

779
00:52:40.179 --> 00:52:44.610
that can eventually eat away at the patina,

780
00:52:44.610 --> 00:52:46.533
and I like that look.

781
00:52:47.790 --> 00:52:51.550
It\'s like the look of the Buddha\'s belly

782
00:52:51.550 --> 00:52:54.200
that get rubbed historically,

783
00:52:54.200 --> 00:52:57.440
and that that part shines from all the rubbing.

784
00:52:57.440 --> 00:52:59.393
And Ona is awaiting that.

785
00:53:11.200 --> 00:53:14.050
I\'ve always been wrong about,

786
00:53:14.050 --> 00:53:15.630
I always thought that Ursula,

787
00:53:15.630 --> 00:53:20.630
once she got a certain level of success could relax.

788
00:53:23.560 --> 00:53:24.920
What was I thinking?

789
00:53:24.920 --> 00:53:26.577
That ain\'t gonna happen.