WEBVTT

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When I was involved with the community,

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some people came to me and said:

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\"Look, Mario, I found this, I found that\".

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And someone showed me

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a video.

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And in that video

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there was...

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... a giant...

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skeleton...

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...and he says:

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\"I wanted to show you this,
so you know it existed,

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but this is gone,

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it\'s no longer here in Chile\".

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It was a spectacular fossil,
that had been taken out of Chile somehow.

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Among the fossil record,
in the whole planet,

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there has never been discovered
a sample as complete as this one.

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We know a lot about the land here.

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We know where the things are.

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There are many things,
without the need to excavate.

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They’re hidden, right there.

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You may find cachalots,

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maybe whales, or penguins.

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And the pelagornithidae.

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We could do a field trip
to dig out the Pelagornis.

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At the Natural History Museum of Chile,
the director received a letter

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from Gerald Mayr,
who is a German paleontologist,

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saying that in Germany,
the remains of

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a toothed bird,

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a very big one,

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coming from Chile.

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Do you want to see literally
the first letter?

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For some reason, it doesn´t say...

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I don’t why I can’t load October...

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The e-mail is 10 years old,
I have to say that.

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I received the E-mail
from the German paleontologist,

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he became aware there was a fossil.

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Apparently, he found the fossil
seemed very peculiar,

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And he knew or thought that...
it came from Chile.

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My name is Gerald Mayr.

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I’m the curator of the
Senckenberg ornithology collection

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I work here for 21 years
and I work scientifically

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mainly with fossil birds.

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The Senckenberg Museum
was founded in 1817

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and it’s one of the oldest
European museums of natural history.

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The ornithology department that I curate,
is among the largest in the world.

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We have almost 10,000 feathered birds.

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And also one of the biggest
bird skeleton collections

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in Europe.

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We have nearly 20,000 bird skeletons
from 3,000 bird species.

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That’s what keeps me busy really.

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I knew about this fossil around 2008, 2009,

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when I visited a German private collector,
for other reasons.

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This collector has mainly fossils
that can be exhibited,

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complete skeletons that are on plates,

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and he collects fossils from another era
and other localities.

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I realized then that it was
extremely important for science,

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Because it was in such good condition
and so complete.

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The collector told me he had bought it
in Tucson\'s fossil market in the USA

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and that he knew that the fossil came
from Bahía Inglesa…

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Shit!

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Do we have to start again?

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Let’s wait until it stops
and we start again.

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I’m going to see who it is,
in case he calls back.

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[There is no hurry.]

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Hi Sven, I’m doing an interview
for television...

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The town of Caldera

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is built over the site

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called Bahía Inglesa Formation.

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Which has fossil sites

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that cover over 100 km along the coast,
which is a lot.

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In perspective,

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given the quality of its fossils,

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and the conservation of the fossils,

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it’s the most important paleontological
site in Chile.

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And in the Marine Neogen context,

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it’s one of the most important
in the world.

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We’re talking about the Atacama Desert

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at a time when there were capybaras,

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crocodiles,

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manatees,

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aquatic sloths.

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It was in the Atacama Region,
at least seven million years ago.

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They lived in that environment,
they died there

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and maybe remained above the seabed.

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And then, with the continental uplift,
the sea moves back,

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and all the sediments that
were at the bottom of the sea,

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were left exposed on the surface,
and stayed there.

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And they became a part of
the Bahía Inglesa Formation

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and the group of lithological units
containing these fossils.

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In the 80’s,
the Chilean Nuclear Energy Commission

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realized that there was a
radiometric anomaly in this area.

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So they asked a young geologist

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to come and investigate if this
could possibly be

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a base of the Chilean nuclear industry.

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And he informs the Chilean Nuclear Energy Commission

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that there is no uranium,
but there is a great amount of phosphorite,

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so an industry was possible.

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And a mining company starts
exploiting phosphorite,

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whose main market at that moment,

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were the soils of the south of Chile.

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They are bones transformed

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into a fertilizing product.

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Here, they took raw phosphate

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and also distributed it to other
companies, which labeled it

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and distributed it throughout
our entire country.

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It caused clear environmental damage,

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but also to the paleontological heritage.

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I met many workers,
some who had already worked some years,

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and they usually turned the plates
and took the fossils,

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because they would end up in a grinder,
so they said:

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\"I rather take the fossil with me,
so they will not get grinded or broken,

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otherwise, it\'s a loss\"

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So they would take them home.

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Caldera started out as a mining district.

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But as time went by,

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Caldera became a fishing town.

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And the thing is that the catch
can be good or bad,

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and if it’s bad, you have
to sustain your family.

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Before the ships arrived,
the trawling, the fencing,

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the catch was abundant.

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There was a lot of hake here.
And they ate all the hakes,

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because they made no distinction
in the trawling.

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So, along the entire coast,
from here to Huasco

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and from here to Taltal,

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all-day working.

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They wiped out the whole species and left.

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These beaches were full of fish.

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One could fish right here,

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load the fish
and go straight to the port.

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Around 1983,

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the ships started to arrive.

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Five Surestes arrived that would take

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350, 400 tons.

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There was the Atacama too,
which belonged to this fishing Company,

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the biggest one made 500,
the Atacama Quinto.

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They entered here every day.

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They ate all this good peak.

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All the fish close to the shore got lost,

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at least for us,

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for the smallest ones.

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The fishing got worse,

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and before that nobody cared
much about shark teeth,

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the fossils.

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You climbed the hills
and found holes

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where big teeth could be found.
Everyone knew where the teeth were.

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So, a person came to buy a tooth
for 10 bucks,

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100 bucks.
Then they found the big teeth,

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and they offered 500 bucks.

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And then everybody in Caldera
was looking for shark teeth,

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because the money was there.

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This case is worthy of a Ph.D. thesis
in anthropology.

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In the ’90s, there was a sort of
Megalodon Fever.

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Obviously, when choosing between to go
fishing or looking for a petrified fish,

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it’s best to go for the petrified fish
that you have close by,

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in fact, they went with grandma.
It was a family activity.

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As a diver...

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The sea was bad
and you didn\'t have anything to eat,

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you went up the hill, dug a couple
of teeth, and sold them.

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Tourists arrived, gringos,
and they bought them.

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I think that wasn\'t bad,
because people dug them to survive.

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Of course, it\'s bad to destroy
so many fossils,

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because they didn\'t only buy teeth.

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But at the time it was so.

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At the time, before the 2000s,
people lived from this.

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They would buy bread, they would
buy food with that, and they lived.

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To find a teeth,

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a small one,

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it was money.

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But if you found a megalodon\'s tooth,

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that could cost 300, 400 thousand,
even a million pesos,

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a big one, that was good.

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Because the hill doesn\'t ask for a curriculum,
it doesn\'t ask for your age or anything.

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There were old men, kids,

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and, I don\'t know, even ex-prisoners,

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who couldn\'t work
because they had a record,

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but with this, they could work
and feed themselves.

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People had a house,
went out to the backyard

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and dug a little to put a pole,
to hang clothes,

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and a shark tooth came out,
that was a reality.

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Taxis had shark teeth hanging
from the rearview mirror.

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On the windows at home,
to close the windows,

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they used to put a whale vertebra.

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I mean, there was a huge abundance,

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so people had a connection with fossils,

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which appeared before the scientific matters.

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If you think in the gold fever,

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this was the tooth fever.

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It was a whole town

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dedicated to fossils.

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Everybody lived from that.

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You saw the fishermen, the divers,
everyone.

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And the most gratifying thing was to say:

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\"Today I get to go to the supermarket
with my family\".

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The megalodon tooth

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has always called people\'s attention
and has always been striking,

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because they love the big predator thing,

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it’s like a tooth from a T-Rex.

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It really calls your attention.

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And it was one of the
most trafficked pieces too.

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There are other smaller shark teeth,
but people always look for the megalodon.

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People came from abroad.

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And they came here to buy it.

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This was really a free market.

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Gringos mostly.

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And in Bahía is free,
you threw a cloth and...

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... anyone would say:

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\"Hey, I give you 200 for this one,
this much for the other\".

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The Chilean megalodon tooth,

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which was sold here between 25 and 50 thousand pesos,

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could end up costing 4,000 dollars.

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When I was ten my dad began
digging fossils,

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oysters.

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And that was at on limits
of the Bifox mining company.

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And without knowing about fossils,
he started working with the oysters.

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Then he started taking out sea urchins,

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the sand dollar, a different kind
of sea urchin from what we see now,

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thinner.

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That’s how my dad improved
himself over time,

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and me too because I went with him
and learned as well.

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It was hard work.

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We...

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had to shovel many cubic meters every day

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to reach the fossils and take them out.

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Anyhow, we benefited from that,
we earned some dough with it,

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but we also were passionate
about this fossil thing.

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We were the only ones.

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Other people extracted fossils,

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but they were interested
in the money only.

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You used to go to the center
of Caldera\'s square,

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and it was full of artisans.

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Not only shark teeth,

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there were other bones,
and you looked at them and said:

00:18:22.863 --> 00:18:24.753
\"Look, this is a dolphin skull\".

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\"Look, this is a whale\'s bone.
This is whale eardrum\".

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It was really impressive.

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None of that had been published.

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None of it had been formally
acknowledged by a scientist,

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so you said: \"What is going on here?\".

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One day, in one of these shops
that bought fossils,

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they had teeth from a giant cachalot.

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Unfortunately, when we went back
to tell the shop owner

00:18:48.733 --> 00:18:51.443
that those fossils were very important
for the heritage,

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he told us they had been sold.

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It’s easy to feel that you have the right
over something

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when you take it out yourself.

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But in Chile, there is law that protects
heritage goods

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and fossils are included therein.

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I think that the ones that did the big hit

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was the cultural heritage squad BIDEMA.

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Since they came to Caldera

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to investigate, verify sources,
seize things,

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the fossils trade was
significantly restrained.

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All fossils that arrived in Santiago
from the investigation, came out of there,

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came from that formation,
there was no other place.

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Look, I don’t think there were
many people involved.

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And that it was at such
a big scale either.

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I think people didn’t know

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and saw it as a normal and common thing to do.

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But they found out over time.

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Well, in the news they said that the PDI
had arrested people for selling fossils.

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And that’s when people started to realize,

00:20:23.613 --> 00:20:25.553
we started a campaign on the radio.

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In a small town like Caldera,

00:20:30.198 --> 00:20:35.810
being the one denouncing
and being us the bad guys,

00:20:37.910 --> 00:20:39.353
it\'s complicated.

00:20:44.516 --> 00:20:48.851
It’s hard to tell a person
who has spent his whole life

00:20:48.851 --> 00:20:51.327
going to the hills and extracting things,
to stop doing that.

00:20:52.399 --> 00:20:53.602
It\'s complicated.

00:20:53.874 --> 00:20:57.339
We were looking for new areas,
because they were following us,

00:20:57.339 --> 00:21:00.759
the police were following us,
and we had problems with all these things,

00:21:00.759 --> 00:21:05.863
because it was illegal, we looked for a new,
more isolated area,

00:21:06.875 --> 00:21:08.105
so they wouldn’t find us.

00:21:08.655 --> 00:21:11.805
A place where it would be
easier to extract fossils.

00:21:13.739 --> 00:21:16.994
And I went with my dad and we said, look:
\"There’s a penguin skull\".

00:21:16.994 --> 00:21:21.659
And I said: \"I think the beak
of the penguin is over there\".

00:21:22.719 --> 00:21:26.399
I cleaned it, and we took out the first
penguin, which was complete, articulated.

00:21:26.979 --> 00:21:29.859
We realized that all animals
came out articulated.

00:21:29.859 --> 00:21:32.094
And that’s when we stopped extracting fossils,

00:21:32.094 --> 00:21:33.300
I mean fossil teeth.

00:21:33.300 --> 00:21:35.157
We focused only on...

00:21:36.225 --> 00:21:38.239
... fully articulated animals.

00:21:42.944 --> 00:21:45.379
At that moment,
a new level of trafficking began,

00:21:45.379 --> 00:21:49.234
because they sold complete skeletons.

00:21:49.234 --> 00:21:50.456
Penguin skeletons,

00:21:51.074 --> 00:21:52.634
boobies skeletons,

00:21:52.634 --> 00:21:55.794
sloth remains, dolphin skulls came out.

00:22:00.141 --> 00:22:05.646
And there was a bird among them,
which is a pelagornithidae.

00:22:06.381 --> 00:22:11.038
A bird that has jaw projections,

00:22:11.038 --> 00:22:13.814
bony projections,
bulges like teeth.

00:22:13.814 --> 00:22:15.441
They’re false teeth.

00:22:15.951 --> 00:22:19.601
That feature, and its size,
differentiate them from the rest of birds.

00:22:19.601 --> 00:22:21.031
They’re extinct.

00:22:23.625 --> 00:22:26.070
This fossil, the Pelagornis,
was taken out of Chile

00:22:26.570 --> 00:22:28.945
and is sold in an exhibition in the USA.

00:22:31.025 --> 00:22:32.745
Once the fossil leaves Chile,

00:22:33.265 --> 00:22:35.885
it’s practically impossible to recover it.

00:23:05.425 --> 00:23:07.160
The Tucson Fossil show

00:23:07.160 --> 00:23:10.435
is the largest fossil show that
I know in the United States,

00:23:10.435 --> 00:23:12.965
and maybe and most certainly
some of the largest in the world.

00:23:17.350 --> 00:23:21.890
Is there a problem with very rare
specimens going into private hands?

00:23:21.890 --> 00:23:24.490
Yeah, there is that possibility,

00:23:24.800 --> 00:23:28.670
there’s always a possibility, whenever you’re
selling something, that someone could come along

00:23:28.670 --> 00:23:31.360
and buy it and put it in their living room.

00:23:31.750 --> 00:23:32.650
Absolutely.

00:23:36.342 --> 00:23:39.452
So, museums don’t have the storage space
for all of it,

00:23:39.452 --> 00:23:42.622
they don’t have the manpower
to prepare it and clean it up,

00:23:42.622 --> 00:23:45.852
they don’t have the money to do it,
in many cases.

00:23:45.852 --> 00:23:48.812
So, some of the stuff
that’s not as significant,

00:23:48.812 --> 00:23:51.962
I don’t have a problem with going and
give it to the hands of a local teacher,

00:23:51.962 --> 00:23:53.897
who is going to use it in the classroom

00:23:53.897 --> 00:23:57.132
and help inspire young kids
to become paleontologists.

00:23:57.598 --> 00:24:00.416
You’ll find things here that you’ll
probably never see

00:24:00.416 --> 00:24:03.878
anywhere else in the world,
which I’ve always found fascinating.

00:24:03.878 --> 00:24:05.203
Each year I think;

00:24:05.813 --> 00:24:09.228
\"What am I going to see
that makes me go: Wow!\".

00:24:20.665 --> 00:24:24.005
And there, a European millionaire
bought it, I think he was German.

00:24:24.645 --> 00:24:27.495
And this millionaire contacts Gerald Mayr

00:24:27.495 --> 00:24:33.085
and it turns out he wanted
to know more about this bird.

00:24:42.194 --> 00:24:43.940
I call you back.

00:24:46.866 --> 00:24:48.304
OK, let’s start again.

00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:53.700
So,

00:24:54.490 --> 00:24:58.663
I knew about this fossil in 2008 or 2009.

00:24:58.663 --> 00:25:02.929
When I met a German private collector.

00:25:03.357 --> 00:25:07.138
I saw a box with this fossil
in his collection.

00:25:08.018 --> 00:25:12.137
I immediately realized that this fossil
was important for science.

00:25:12.937 --> 00:25:16.383
Because, up to then, not much
was known about pseudo tooth birds.

00:25:16.383 --> 00:25:20.044
And this fossil was extremely
well preserved and complete.

00:25:24.574 --> 00:25:30.184
I contacted colleagues in Chile
to know what to do with this fossil,

00:25:30.184 --> 00:25:35.998
Since, apparently, it had been
taken out from Chile illegally.

00:25:37.624 --> 00:25:40.934
I had imagined that the fossil was
spectacular, but when I actually saw it,

00:25:40.934 --> 00:25:42.884
my jaw dropped.

00:26:16.772 --> 00:26:19.902
And the most interesting about this animal

00:26:20.823 --> 00:26:23.572
was that it was 70% complete.

00:26:26.571 --> 00:26:29.511
These pseudotooth birds

00:26:29.511 --> 00:26:33.898
lived for a very long time.

00:26:33.898 --> 00:26:36.547
And became extinct
almost 2 million years ago.

00:26:36.547 --> 00:26:40.258
They existed when human evolution began.

00:26:42.860 --> 00:26:47.873
A feature of these birds is that,
given their big size,

00:26:47.873 --> 00:26:51.194
Their bones were incredibly thin
and very fragile.

00:26:52.014 --> 00:26:58.080
In most cases, only the most robust
articulations are conserved.

00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:03.508
If we see the mold,
these wings are extremely long.

00:27:03.508 --> 00:27:07.155
And they could not rotate them
as a normal bird.

00:27:07.155 --> 00:27:10.488
They could not rotate the shoulder.

00:27:10.488 --> 00:27:14.116
They simply extended the wings and glided.

00:27:14.116 --> 00:27:17.153
So it was not clear
how they could take off and land.

00:27:17.153 --> 00:27:19.867
It is probable that they had to fly
against strong winds.

00:27:19.867 --> 00:27:23.370
And their legs were relatively short.
The wings were 5 meter long

00:27:23.370 --> 00:27:25.362
and the legs were this short.

00:27:35.888 --> 00:27:37.433
How did it come out?

00:27:37.823 --> 00:27:39.678
This was a really big animal.

00:27:40.318 --> 00:27:42.682
Who can take out a fossil...

00:27:43.870 --> 00:27:45.808
... this way from Chile?

00:27:45.808 --> 00:27:47.648
Can an artisan do that?

00:27:48.308 --> 00:27:52.184
With little to none cultural contacts
in other countries?

00:27:52.184 --> 00:27:53.184
No.

00:27:54.211 --> 00:27:57.641
The most interesting thing happened
when I returned from Germany,

00:27:57.641 --> 00:28:01.551
because when I came back to Chile,
I went to the site immediately, with the photos,

00:28:01.551 --> 00:28:04.991
to talk to several fossil hunters,

00:28:04.991 --> 00:28:07.401
to see if anyone knew something about it.

00:28:07.971 --> 00:28:10.740
And later, when David and Carolina came

00:28:10.740 --> 00:28:13.821
to tell us that there was a pelican
that seemed to come from here,

00:28:13.821 --> 00:28:15.876
I said: \"Let me see\".

00:28:16.356 --> 00:28:18.601
And when I saw the photos,
I immediately recognized it.

00:28:18.891 --> 00:28:20.041
It was me who took it out.

00:28:20.781 --> 00:28:22.150
Well, with my dad.

00:28:27.121 --> 00:28:30.401
I said to my dad, you know,
this side looks nice.

00:28:30.713 --> 00:28:33.083
Let’s work hard,
let’s work all week

00:28:33.653 --> 00:28:35.743
and see what happens\".

00:28:35.743 --> 00:28:37.113
\"Ok\", he said.

00:28:42.675 --> 00:28:44.114
And I clean the place.

00:28:45.515 --> 00:28:48.231
And my dad was cleaning there and I say:

00:28:48.231 --> 00:28:49.745
\"Look, Dad!\", I call him.

00:28:50.092 --> 00:28:52.492
He said: \"Wow, that looks like a tuna jaw\".

00:28:53.577 --> 00:28:55.953
And I kept cleaning and the jaw kept growing

00:28:55.953 --> 00:28:58.955
until it was this size,
and I told him:

00:28:58.955 --> 00:29:01.071
\"Dad, this isn’t a tuna\".

00:29:01.071 --> 00:29:02.413
\"And what is it?\".

00:29:02.413 --> 00:29:03.541
\"It’s a pelican\".

00:29:04.711 --> 00:29:06.921
He says: \"How is it possible? It has teeth.\"

00:29:08.565 --> 00:29:12.715
I think it’s one of the most important things
that my dad and I had ever found.

00:29:12.715 --> 00:29:16.160
Given the wingspan of the fossil,

00:29:16.830 --> 00:29:19.545
and because we knew that nothing like
this had ever come out.

00:29:27.237 --> 00:29:30.133
What happens is that,
just by taking it out of there,

00:29:30.883 --> 00:29:33.397
reduces significantly its value.

00:29:36.679 --> 00:29:39.304
And that’s the main problem
that fossil hunters face,

00:29:39.304 --> 00:29:41.800
when they extract some material,

00:29:41.800 --> 00:29:43.539
they decontextualize it.

00:29:43.539 --> 00:29:45.499
And these data are lost forever.

00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:48.908
The treasure may be very pretty,

00:29:49.258 --> 00:29:51.999
it may look good in the house
of a businessman,

00:29:52.659 --> 00:29:55.809
but it loses all its value
if it’s decontextualized.

00:30:00.103 --> 00:30:02.210
They didn’t know what they
had in their hands.

00:30:02.210 --> 00:30:03.883
They really never knew.

00:30:04.556 --> 00:30:06.435
These pieces, this fossil,

00:30:07.832 --> 00:30:10.145
maybe if it had been taken out
the right way.

00:30:10.145 --> 00:30:12.372
With the right methodology,

00:30:12.372 --> 00:30:14.402
more information could have been retrieved.

00:30:14.872 --> 00:30:16.797
Because the position of the fossil,

00:30:18.027 --> 00:30:20.770
if it’s on a finer sector or a thicker section,

00:30:20.770 --> 00:30:22.292
it tells you something.

00:30:22.292 --> 00:30:24.995
It tells you something,
it’s useful to interpret a place.

00:30:24.995 --> 00:30:28.041
You don’t know how that animal died,
why it is in that position.

00:30:28.461 --> 00:30:29.931
You lose this history

00:30:29.931 --> 00:30:32.191
when you take out that fossil.

00:30:47.163 --> 00:30:49.029
The moment came when...

00:30:49.719 --> 00:30:52.226
the police started to follow us.

00:30:52.516 --> 00:30:54.151
Some went to jail.

00:30:54.151 --> 00:30:56.053
One day we had a meeting

00:30:56.053 --> 00:30:58.097
and decided to create

00:30:58.837 --> 00:31:01.237
a non-profit association,

00:31:01.237 --> 00:31:03.207
to help our community.

00:31:03.685 --> 00:31:06.317
I don’t remember the exact year, but...

00:31:06.977 --> 00:31:08.757
... we stopped taking out fossils.

00:31:08.757 --> 00:31:10.401
And we changed our attitude.

00:31:10.401 --> 00:31:12.690
To begin, those who were
in the association,

00:31:12.690 --> 00:31:14.158
could no longer extract fossils.

00:31:14.158 --> 00:31:16.608
If we found out that someone
was selling fossils

00:31:16.608 --> 00:31:21.295
or was discovered with a fossil
in his handcraft stand,

00:31:21.295 --> 00:31:22.858
he got automatically eliminated.

00:31:23.398 --> 00:31:25.833
And so the number of members was reduced,

00:31:28.244 --> 00:31:30.380
because we made a real change.

00:31:33.318 --> 00:31:36.480
And everyone came with their pieces
and we classified them in small boxes.

00:31:37.280 --> 00:31:38.530
That’s how we started the museum.

00:31:39.518 --> 00:31:42.503
Locally, there was nothing similar,

00:31:42.503 --> 00:31:44.036
they called themselves Pro Museum,

00:31:44.036 --> 00:31:45.540
but nobody believed them.

00:31:45.540 --> 00:31:48.790
Because they’d been taking out fossils
illegally all the time,

00:31:48.790 --> 00:31:51.790
in fact, they were still doing it
while they wanted to create this museum.

00:31:51.790 --> 00:31:57.210
Then it was set out as a
“laundering” possibility,

00:31:57.210 --> 00:31:58.240
and it was serious.

00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:01.100
So there, an authority had to
intervene and inspect

00:32:01.100 --> 00:32:03.850
if it was being done correctly.

00:32:04.290 --> 00:32:08.867
That’s when the Townhall of Caldera
started to play a very important role.

00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:12.405
We had to raise awareness

00:32:12.405 --> 00:32:15.086
and create an institution
that would safeguard these fossils.

00:32:15.454 --> 00:32:18.339
And we built a sort of barn,
inside of a big barn,

00:32:18.339 --> 00:32:21.874
which is the Caldera Station
Cultural Center.

00:32:21.874 --> 00:32:25.244
We installed the piece number 1,
whose name is Josefina,

00:32:25.244 --> 00:32:28.294
which was donated by
Mr. Gonzalo Domínguez.

00:32:31.407 --> 00:32:36.950
This piece number 1
was enriched by over eight thousand pieces

00:32:36.950 --> 00:32:41.014
handed over voluntarily
by the Pro Museum people.

00:32:43.294 --> 00:32:47.414
We concentrated on expanding the museum,
because the museum had nothing

00:32:47.414 --> 00:32:49.524
and we started to apply to funds.

00:32:49.854 --> 00:32:52.247
And with those projects,
we equipped the whole museum.

00:32:52.247 --> 00:32:53.657
From the lightbulbs,

00:32:53.657 --> 00:32:55.677
the microscopes with cameras,

00:32:55.677 --> 00:32:58.969
all the infrastructure,
the tools, everything was ours.

00:32:59.408 --> 00:33:01.993
We built The Paleontological Park
on our own,

00:33:01.993 --> 00:33:03.214
with our sweat,

00:33:03.214 --> 00:33:04.286
as an organization.

00:33:04.964 --> 00:33:08.021
They went with me and we worked together,
making trails,

00:33:08.021 --> 00:33:10.404
so that people could
walk through the park.

00:33:12.994 --> 00:33:16.196
I think the most beautiful thing
was that the same people

00:33:16.196 --> 00:33:19.662
who had destroyed the place
had come back to rebuild it.

00:33:19.662 --> 00:33:22.182
So we were making
something really beautiful.

00:33:22.892 --> 00:33:26.037
And without knowing it, we were creating

00:33:26.037 --> 00:33:28.372
the Paleontological Park of Caldera.

00:33:41.032 --> 00:33:44.550
Yes, this could perfectly well be
a natural laboratory,

00:33:44.550 --> 00:33:47.437
because the layers are very distinct here.

00:33:47.792 --> 00:33:50.372
There are also traces of invertebrates,

00:33:51.430 --> 00:33:54.132
which also allow you to associate
the environment,

00:33:54.132 --> 00:33:56.523
so the learning is much more complete.

00:33:57.803 --> 00:34:01.753
It’s something really beautiful, and you
can see it throughout the whole site.

00:34:02.463 --> 00:34:05.068
Sure, in this area,
where my hand is in the shadow,

00:34:05.868 --> 00:34:09.583
we see crashed bones or white fragments.

00:34:10.167 --> 00:34:12.027
If we follow them,

00:34:12.027 --> 00:34:18.039
we find that the origin
of this piece is right up here.

00:34:33.028 --> 00:34:36.019
It was difficult for us,

00:34:37.021 --> 00:34:39.055
but we were happy.

00:34:39.738 --> 00:34:41.968
Because we were going to transform ourselves,

00:34:41.968 --> 00:34:44.588
we were going to work
at the park and in the museum.

00:34:45.378 --> 00:34:48.678
But if they took away the park and the
museum, where were we supposed to work?

00:34:49.484 --> 00:34:52.394
We had no idea that this
was going to happen to us.

00:34:56.121 --> 00:34:58.901
When we left, we offered them our support.

00:34:58.901 --> 00:35:01.431
With or without bucks,
you can rely on our support.

00:35:01.431 --> 00:35:05.051
I don’t know why, until this day
they have never called us.

00:35:05.051 --> 00:35:08.651
We managed an alliance with the
University of Atacama,

00:35:08.651 --> 00:35:10.422
to regionalize this matter.

00:35:11.078 --> 00:35:13.649
How long are we going to allow
the central government

00:35:13.649 --> 00:35:16.105
to steal what is ours?

00:35:17.335 --> 00:35:21.275
Our idea was to make a change
in labor terms,

00:35:21.275 --> 00:35:23.855
so that we, the younger ones,
could keep studying.

00:35:23.855 --> 00:35:26.572
To get a job; but that never happened.

00:35:27.010 --> 00:35:31.530
Many people who were doing postgraduate
studies, they are all Doctors now,

00:35:31.530 --> 00:35:35.420
most of them thanks to the information
that we gave them.

00:35:35.420 --> 00:35:37.921
So, I think the paleontology field
here in Chile

00:35:37.921 --> 00:35:40.012
owe us as an organization.

00:35:40.012 --> 00:35:44.149
Not even a gesture of gratitude, on the contrary,
they don’t want to work with Pro Museum

00:35:44.149 --> 00:35:45.442
and that’s absurd.

00:35:47.030 --> 00:35:49.490
What happened was a dichotomy

00:35:49.490 --> 00:35:53.233
between those who wanted to be
the protagonists of the story

00:35:53.233 --> 00:35:57.740
and those who had to put the seal
and the name of the scientists.

00:35:58.150 --> 00:36:01.095
So, sometimes the egos play a role

00:36:01.095 --> 00:36:04.600
and I think that’s an issue in which
science is still in debt

00:36:04.600 --> 00:36:06.940
with the people who
have a big experience,

00:36:06.940 --> 00:36:09.000
and would also like to be acknowledged.

00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:10.895
They were mentioned in publications, in journals,

00:36:10.895 --> 00:36:13.363
with the pieces that we extracted,

00:36:13.363 --> 00:36:15.587
with information that we gave them.

00:36:16.912 --> 00:36:18.350
And nothing.

00:36:18.350 --> 00:36:20.973
We weren’t expecting to earn
millions of pesos either,

00:36:20.973 --> 00:36:23.587
we just wanted to be recognized,
to have a job.

00:36:24.101 --> 00:36:25.365
Nothing else.

00:36:30.595 --> 00:36:34.610
That’s why sometimes we get so upset,
because the last one, who...

00:36:35.030 --> 00:36:37.577
Well, not the last one, but one of the last ones to fight

00:36:38.255 --> 00:36:40.080
was Héctor Mauna.

00:36:40.080 --> 00:36:43.302
He said to me: \"David, let’s do it!\"

00:36:43.302 --> 00:36:46.085
I said to him: \"You know what,
I’m going to retire\".

00:36:46.951 --> 00:36:49.913
And he said to me:
\"Stay David, don’t leave\".

00:36:49.913 --> 00:36:51.982
And in the end, I stayed

00:36:51.982 --> 00:36:52.946
and he left.

00:36:53.396 --> 00:36:56.066
The time came when, we decided
as an association,

00:36:56.066 --> 00:36:59.474
since we had no support from them,
to leave the museum:

00:37:01.507 --> 00:37:05.643
\"You keep the museum, the pieces,
the display cabinets,

00:37:05.643 --> 00:37:09.661
but all the equipment and implementation
is ours and we’ll take them with us\".

00:37:09.661 --> 00:37:12.723
We took some things from the museum,

00:37:12.723 --> 00:37:15.086
but we weren’t allowed
to take the rest,

00:37:15.086 --> 00:37:16.471
even though they were our things.

00:37:16.841 --> 00:37:19.571
That’s when the big conflict
with the Townhall began.

00:37:19.571 --> 00:37:22.171
Until today, we have received no letter.

00:37:22.171 --> 00:37:24.562
And our belongings are still there.

00:37:24.562 --> 00:37:27.478
Until now, they still have
not returned our things,

00:37:27.478 --> 00:37:28.871
I don’t know, we don’t understand why.

00:37:28.871 --> 00:37:31.016
I talked to him and he said:
\"No, the thing is that…\".

00:37:31.016 --> 00:37:33.438
And I told him: \"But dad, try to...

00:37:33.438 --> 00:37:36.281
... to step back, because I see how
this affects you.

00:37:36.281 --> 00:37:38.193
It could have been avoided.

00:37:38.193 --> 00:37:39.533
It was avoided with what they did.

00:37:39.533 --> 00:37:42.395
No, but after the closure,
this could have been avoided.

00:37:43.665 --> 00:37:46.149
And that’s why my dad fought till the end.

00:37:46.433 --> 00:37:50.133
On top of that, it was hired...
we were accused of...

00:37:51.663 --> 00:37:53.168
I’m sorry...

00:37:54.828 --> 00:37:56.423
my blood pressure went up.

00:38:06.842 --> 00:38:09.652
My dad was passionate about the fossils.

00:38:09.652 --> 00:38:12.082
And he cared about this and struggled

00:38:12.082 --> 00:38:16.032
until the last minute to pull off
the museum, the paleontology

00:38:16.032 --> 00:38:17.982
and to enhance the name of Caldera.

00:38:17.982 --> 00:38:20.890
To be recognized as one of
the most important places

00:38:20.890 --> 00:38:23.952
in South America in the field of
paleontology of marine vertebrates.

00:38:25.888 --> 00:38:28.758
And my daddy passed away fighting.

00:38:49.236 --> 00:38:51.246
Here’s the original E-mail.

00:38:51.246 --> 00:38:54.606
It says: \"The current owner is very cooperative,

00:38:54.606 --> 00:39:00.010
and he’s open to any negotiation
to send the fossil back to Chile\".

00:39:27.606 --> 00:39:30.146
What happened, it\'s something that
it will not happen again:

00:39:30.146 --> 00:39:33.206
The current policy of the Senckenberg Museum is that,

00:39:33.206 --> 00:39:36.666
if they buy material from countries

00:39:36.666 --> 00:39:39.786
with a legislation that protects
their heritage,

00:39:40.707 --> 00:39:43.190
That material must be returned
to the country of origin.

00:40:01.052 --> 00:40:04.352
Here we have the most complete
pelagornithidae in the world.

00:40:04.352 --> 00:40:08.296
Through a series of fortunate events for Chile,

00:40:08.296 --> 00:40:09.532
we recovered it.

00:40:34.090 --> 00:40:38.650
I think this piece could have been
in a private collection in Europe

00:40:38.650 --> 00:40:40.510
hidden for a long time.

00:40:40.730 --> 00:40:43.501
And Chile would have known
nothing about it.

00:40:43.501 --> 00:40:46.581
It was a considerable amount of money.

00:40:46.581 --> 00:40:51.040
Getting it from our board of directors
to give it to a private collector,

00:40:51.040 --> 00:40:53.425
and then return it to Chile,

00:40:53.425 --> 00:40:56.820
was a huge financial effort for Senckenberg,

00:40:57.490 --> 00:41:00.180
a big amount of money to be raised.

00:41:02.884 --> 00:41:06.669
The fossil is so spectacular,
that when it was published,

00:41:06.669 --> 00:41:10.956
it was published in the cover.

00:41:10.956 --> 00:41:14.319
The cover of the Journal of Vertebrate
Paleontology,

00:41:14.319 --> 00:41:18.504
which is the most important journal
on vertebrate paleontology

00:41:19.811 --> 00:41:24.116
At the time, it was highlighted because
it described the detailed anatomy

00:41:24.116 --> 00:41:26.134
for the first time, of a pelagornithidae.

00:41:35.856 --> 00:41:38.266
The Pelagornis Chilensis was at that time

00:41:38.266 --> 00:41:41.831
then the biggest pseudotooth
bird ever found.

00:41:41.831 --> 00:41:46.523
At that time it was also the best preserved

00:41:48.013 --> 00:41:52.338
and it’s still until today the only individual
from which we know so many bones.

00:42:04.778 --> 00:42:07.639
After seven million years, it flew again.

00:42:08.329 --> 00:42:12.329
I don’t know, maybe the migration routes
of the Pelagornis were intercontinental.

00:42:13.700 --> 00:42:17.379
We don’t know, that\'s a side of their lives
that has not been unveiled yet.

00:42:17.379 --> 00:42:19.119
But this animal,

00:42:19.119 --> 00:42:21.599
despite being fossilized,

00:42:21.599 --> 00:42:23.229
traveled around the world again.

00:42:24.162 --> 00:42:26.459
Do you see? All due to an incidental event.

00:42:31.494 --> 00:42:35.906
I think Chile was very lucky
with the Pelagornis,

00:42:36.578 --> 00:42:38.482
it’s an example of

00:42:38.482 --> 00:42:43.406
the awareness of other countries that
know the value of this good for our country.

00:42:43.406 --> 00:42:50.196
If that awareness had not existed
among those who found this fossil abroad,

00:42:50.196 --> 00:42:56.008
it would have probably stayed in Europe
and would have not returned to our country.

00:42:56.008 --> 00:42:57.807
This one returned to Chile,

00:42:57.807 --> 00:43:03.326
but we may be losing many other goods
of that quality,

00:43:03.326 --> 00:43:05.126
and we may not know about it.

00:43:15.571 --> 00:43:18.374
The company as such does not exist anymore,

00:43:18.374 --> 00:43:22.501
it was sold to the Australians,
to the Kiwanda Company,

00:43:22.501 --> 00:43:25.291
which created a branch office
called Fosfatos Caldera.

00:43:29.488 --> 00:43:30.556
In that sense,

00:43:30.556 --> 00:43:34.308
the same company has also shown
interest in protecting,

00:43:34.308 --> 00:43:37.070
and finding the best way to
safeguard and mitigate.

00:43:37.070 --> 00:43:38.592
And we have been working on it.

00:43:38.592 --> 00:43:41.351
In how these two things can work together.

00:43:41.351 --> 00:43:43.495
When we got in touch,

00:43:43.495 --> 00:43:46.211
as the people who were interested
in protecting the heritage,

00:43:46.211 --> 00:43:48.925
directly with the Australians,
we reached an agreement

00:43:48.925 --> 00:43:52.997
stating that the original protected site
of 159 hectares,

00:43:52.997 --> 00:43:55.412
which later was increased to 200 hectares,

00:43:55.412 --> 00:43:58.267
and transformed into the
Paleontological Park of Caldera,

00:43:58.267 --> 00:44:00.762
Would be extended to more than 2,500 hectares,

00:44:00.762 --> 00:44:04.819
and in fact, the last agreements indicate
almost 3,000 protected hectares.

00:44:08.755 --> 00:44:12.170
As any productive activity,

00:44:12.170 --> 00:44:16.875
the extraction of fossils generated an
impact on heritage.

00:44:16.875 --> 00:44:20.153
So, on the one side you had a low-income family

00:44:20.153 --> 00:44:24.305
who needed money to survive,

00:44:24.305 --> 00:44:26.735
to make ends meet, as you say.

00:44:26.735 --> 00:44:29.770
But on the other hand, they were making
a profit from a heritage.

00:44:29.770 --> 00:44:31.578
There had to be an alternative.

00:44:31.578 --> 00:44:33.235
And what alternative.

00:44:34.635 --> 00:44:36.320
I said, \"If you find a fossil,

00:44:37.192 --> 00:44:38.780
give it to the museum,

00:44:38.780 --> 00:44:41.520
make a mold and sell the copy,

00:44:41.520 --> 00:44:42.934
don’t sell the original.

00:44:44.413 --> 00:44:48.389
Well, this is going to be our contribution
to the paleontology in Atacama.

00:44:48.389 --> 00:44:50.549
And in a couple of years,
this is going to look like this.

00:44:51.427 --> 00:44:54.283
Because we’re the ones
who are introducing ourselves in this,

00:44:54.283 --> 00:44:55.860
we are the people of the land,

00:44:55.860 --> 00:44:58.208
the people who ultimately lived from this,

00:44:58.208 --> 00:45:00.807
by selling at that time.

00:45:01.577 --> 00:45:05.248
Now look at how it is being highlighted,
everything here is a replica.

00:45:05.248 --> 00:45:06.748
This is my work over time.

00:45:06.748 --> 00:45:10.568
This treasure has been
collected for more than 20 years.

00:45:10.568 --> 00:45:13.438
That jaw also,

00:45:14.038 --> 00:45:16.718
it’s easy to make these jaws.

00:45:17.558 --> 00:45:19.853
It’s something we worked on.

00:45:21.529 --> 00:45:25.333
We have spent our entire lives here working
in the paleontological subject.

00:45:25.333 --> 00:45:27.954
And these are the last things
I will be doing.

00:45:31.704 --> 00:45:35.417
Finding an articulated animal is...

00:45:36.074 --> 00:45:37.644
... a wonderful thing,

00:45:37.644 --> 00:45:40.184
but finding 43 is,

00:45:41.554 --> 00:45:42.994
quite different.

00:45:44.288 --> 00:45:46.638
Which is more or less what
is happening in Cerro Ballena.

00:45:47.258 --> 00:45:51.988
In the site of Cerro Ballenas, the materials are not disarticulated,

00:45:51.988 --> 00:45:54.463
they are very well associated

00:45:55.768 --> 00:45:57.568
and that is unique conservation.

00:45:59.508 --> 00:46:02.123
Discovering a fossil is
always something beautiful,

00:46:02.123 --> 00:46:04.580
it’s transcendental,

00:46:05.628 --> 00:46:07.698
we could say that it’s almost mystical.

00:46:07.698 --> 00:46:12.163
Because it’s the emotion
of feeling connected

00:46:12.163 --> 00:46:16.168
to a living being who was buried,
hidden, for millions of years.

00:46:17.308 --> 00:46:19.903
When you break the rock and see it,

00:46:19.903 --> 00:46:22.909
there is the impact of the encounter
between the piece and you.

00:46:31.095 --> 00:46:33.468
It’s fascinating,

00:46:33.468 --> 00:46:35.608
it’s a science fiction world,

00:46:35.608 --> 00:46:36.795
but it was real,

00:46:37.429 --> 00:46:40.325
on top of that, it influenced your evolution.

00:46:54.142 --> 00:46:58.156
Recently, there was an article in a
Chilean newspaper

00:46:58.156 --> 00:47:00.294
that collected information from all sites.

00:47:00.294 --> 00:47:01.693
But strangely enough,

00:47:01.693 --> 00:47:04.892
it appeared as one of the most read news
about Chile in the world,

00:47:04.892 --> 00:47:06.492
the discovery of the Chilesaurus,

00:47:06.492 --> 00:47:09.057
This tells us a very interesting thing:

00:47:09.057 --> 00:47:12.592
Which is that Chilean science is becoming
an object of interest at global level.

00:47:13.697 --> 00:47:16.664
The big project that we have to reach,

00:47:16.664 --> 00:47:18.170
in the short term,

00:47:18.170 --> 00:47:21.117
is to open the great
Museum of Paleontology of Chile.

00:47:21.534 --> 00:47:23.567
If we do systematic research here,

00:47:23.567 --> 00:47:27.194
the findings that will take place,
will probably

00:47:27.834 --> 00:47:30.464
turn this place into the center

00:47:30.464 --> 00:47:32.554
of South American paleontology.

00:47:33.751 --> 00:47:37.041
And our heroes will be often
controversial,

00:47:37.041 --> 00:47:38.347
but they are our heroes.

00:47:38.347 --> 00:47:40.387
They are the ones who found
the Pelagornis,

00:47:40.387 --> 00:47:42.697
the biggest shark.

00:47:43.327 --> 00:47:44.369
And finally,

00:47:44.369 --> 00:47:47.415
science can recognize them
by their names,

00:47:47.415 --> 00:47:51.764
in park areas or rooms in the museum.

00:47:55.757 --> 00:47:57.662
And recognize that...

00:47:58.778 --> 00:48:00.038
... we fought hard.

00:48:00.038 --> 00:48:01.773
We struggled a lot and

00:48:01.773 --> 00:48:03.057
after so many years,

00:48:03.057 --> 00:48:04.487
it would be nice to see,

00:48:04.487 --> 00:48:08.706
the name of a park or of important pieces
like the Pelagornis

00:48:08.706 --> 00:48:11.597
in the museum, in the park right there.

00:48:12.779 --> 00:48:16.327
Important pieces that we extracted,
which are unique in the world.

00:48:16.327 --> 00:48:18.637
This would be important to me,
to my family,

00:48:18.637 --> 00:48:22.337
and I think to the families of the people
who gave their lives for this.

00:48:24.325 --> 00:48:25.943
I would like it to have the name
of my father:

00:48:25.943 --> 00:48:27.997
Héctor Mauna

00:48:28.947 --> 00:48:30.627
Sure, I would like that.

00:48:54.717 --> 00:48:59.937
The advantage of the people who are dedicated
to the illegal extraction of materials,

00:48:59.937 --> 00:49:03.192
Is that they have the time
and live right next to the sites,

00:49:03.192 --> 00:49:04.767
so they go constantly.

00:49:04.767 --> 00:49:07.272
Fossil hunters are one step forward.

00:49:07.272 --> 00:49:10.713
They can find a wonderful fossil.

00:49:10.713 --> 00:49:12.747
A fossil with scientific value,

00:49:12.747 --> 00:49:15.197
that they can dig out and sell.

00:49:25.665 --> 00:49:27.650
Usually, the Fossil hunter

00:49:27.650 --> 00:49:30.567
receives a much lower payment

00:49:30.567 --> 00:49:34.955
than the final price, which is rather expensive.

00:49:36.571 --> 00:49:40.971
This is not about a person who steals
or who is interested,

00:49:40.971 --> 00:49:43.511
we’re talking about a trafficking network.

00:49:46.830 --> 00:49:50.070
The intermediaries between the person
who excavates the material

00:49:50.070 --> 00:49:54.440
and how this material reaches
the international exhibitions,

00:49:54.440 --> 00:49:56.665
That process is an obscure process,

00:49:56.665 --> 00:49:58.690
there’s not much information about it.

00:50:00.698 --> 00:50:04.819
There’s no doubt that they infiltrate
the customs,

00:50:04.819 --> 00:50:07.554
controls

00:50:08.170 --> 00:50:10.118
and all that information is lost,

00:50:10.898 --> 00:50:13.084
probably forever.

00:50:17.465 --> 00:50:20.760
When I extracted the fossils,
a container full of fossils left.

00:50:20.760 --> 00:50:22.295
From here to foreign countries,

00:50:23.958 --> 00:50:26.468
to Europe or the United States, Sweden.

00:50:28.052 --> 00:50:32.869
The buyer bought fossils here,
he bought 40, 50, 100 million pesos,

00:50:32.869 --> 00:50:34.409
and left to the Patagonia.

00:50:35.319 --> 00:50:36.854
He worked for a year

00:50:36.854 --> 00:50:40.591
and then put the fossils in a container.

00:50:40.591 --> 00:50:43.139
That’s how he took them.
He took a container filled fossils.